[simpits-tech] The LVDT Side Stick Prototype WORKS!

Mon, 03 Mar 2003 18:19:51 -0500

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Jay,

Thanks for the understanding, Jay.  I really wanted an economical solution
that everyone could buy, but I also want it to be right.

The two seem to be mutually exclusive, so I would rather see someone bitch
about the price once than complain about the quality forever.

You make a good point about the cost of mods to the Cougar base, just to
make it work correctly.  I had not really considered that.  Those mods do
not address the form factor issue that the Cougar base has (i.e., doesn=B9t
fit into the side console correctly) and they can=B9t address the feel
(limited movement and force sensitive).

This does both and adds a much greater reliability to the system, too.
Like HALL Effect pots, LVDT is even more reliable (no mechanically moving
parts that are in contact with each other to wear out).

I=B9ll keep the group posted as the project matures.  Right now I am happy to
say that it does work and it works very well, indeed.  It has been a long
road to get this far and it doesn=B9t cost $50,000 to make.  ;-)

Marv

On 3/3/03 10:48 AM, "Joseph Fagner" <crease-guard@attbi.com> wrote:

> $1500 is high, but nothing I=B9ve done so far is cheap.  Will you make it i=
f I
> pay for it?  Not that I can pay for it at the moment, but if you=B9ll make =
it,
> I=B9ll save for it and get it.  Let me explain my rationale to others who m=
ay
> think I=B9m crazy.  What would the real thing cost?  A truck load more that
> $1500, right?  Marv, I presume you wired it into the cougar=B9s innards as =
you
> had mentioned previously?  This alone is no small feat and well worth the=
 ease
> it will be to maintain the cougar=B9s programmability for me, the end user.
> Now, consider the other mods it would take to get a Cougar to =B3feel=B2 good
> without the dead spots at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o=B9clock.  There is a mod out the=
re
> for about $475 that will do this.  Add in the HE sensors for the stick at=
 $130
> and you are now at $605.  But, you still have to mod the cougar somehow t=
o
> make it useful and out of the way of the instruments and you still really
> won=B9t have that realism.  I want maximum realism and I=B9m willing to pay f=
or
> it.  If you think about it, some of us drop $3000 on a projector for the
> maximum visual realism, what would be the next thing in line?  My opinion
> would be the HOTAS since that is where your hands and thought will be a b=
ig
> chunk of time.  So, I don=B9t think $1500 is an unreasonable amount to ask =
for
> all the time and effort you have placed into this.  So build away, I want=
 one!
> And damn, 1/1000 of a volt!  I can=B9t even imagine how wonderful it feels.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Jay=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-admin@simpits.o=
rg]
> On Behalf Of Marv De Beque
> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 5:12 AM
> To: simpits-tech@simpits.org
> Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Cougar's Spiking Pot! LVDT Side StickPrototyp=
e
> WORKS!
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Jay,
>=20
> Well I just got it working last night and it ROCKS!!!!
>=20
> However, don=B9t get too excited.   The cost of this baby is way out of sit=
e
> (probably $1500).
>=20
> It is complex and the cost of the parts alone is $400, let alone the labo=
r to
> build it.
>=20
> Still, the performance is out of this world.  This thing has a noise and
> jitter of under 1/1000 volt!  And that is on one of those bread boards.
> Mechanically is feels great.  Recentering repeatability is about 1%.   Ta=
stes
> great, too.  ;-)
>=20
> I just put the thread up at:
>=20
> http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=3D31723&goto=3Dnew=
post
>=20
> Marv
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 3/3/03 3:11 AM, "Joseph Fagner" <crease-guard@attbi.com> wrote:
>=20
> Sukit, I have the HE sensor on my stick (am currently awaiting the thrott=
le
> mod as I am getting pot spikes in the throttle as well!).  I could go on =
and
> on about how great they are (they are worth the money, trust me).  GET TH=
E
> MOD!!  My stick is as smooth as a baby=B9s bottom and absolutely no spiking
> whatsoever.  The HE sensors Cub pilot uses are supposedly rated for 15,00=
0,000
> cycles (probably live longer that I will).  Don=B9t waste your time or effo=
rts
> on crappy pots that you will just have to change over and over again.  In=
 the
> long run, the HE sensors will be cheaper and save you a lot of headaches.
> Order both mods at once, as I have been waiting about 2-3 months for my
> throttle mod simply because Cub gets a ton of orders.  I have two cougars=
, one
> of which will be completely HE sensors with Ian Johnston=B9s Uber cougar mo=
d and
> the other I am planning on using with Marv=B9s LVDT stick base when he gets=
 it
> done.  I am going to have Cub add on a second HE sensor on my throttle mo=
d
> when it=B9s time for the throttle in my pit. Hope this helps.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Jay
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-admin@simpits.o=
rg]
> On Behalf Of Sittisudjatum, Sukit
> Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 1:26 AM
> To: simpits-tech@simpits.org
> Subject: [simpits-tech] Cougar's Spiking Pot!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Considering the working hours I've been using it, the pots in my Cougar s=
et
> shouldn't have a well-known "spiking" problem!  But it happened to the po=
t in
> my throttle last weekend.  I just noticed it when I can't get to the idle
> position when I flew a DC-3 in MSFS2002.  Then, I tested it in Foxy analy=
zer
> software, and accepted that there's a problem.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I checked in the hardware section of the official cougar web pages, and s=
aw
> that there's a Q&A about fixing the spiking pot!  Gezzz... this must happ=
en to
> many cougar owners, so they have the Q&A listed.  I experienced fixing a
> spiking pot in my F-22 stick (FCLS+TQS) and it went well that time, so th=
is
> shouldn't be a big deal with a small CTS pot.  But it's not, after deasse=
mble
> the pot, clean out the dust, putting grease, and put them all in the
> positions.... there's still some noticable (and unacceptable) spiking !!!=
! (It
> was an unhappy weekend to me).  I thought I have to check the OEM web sit=
e,
> and see if I can buy .. may be 10 pots! as spare parts.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I found the CTS web site, printed out the product catalog, and I even fou=
nd
> that there's a distributor in Bangkok (a big surprise to me).  I suddenly
> called the distributor, a sale person was not very kind.  I was told that=
 they
> have some samples for the customers, and the minimum order will be as les=
sas
> 10,000 pots!!!! Gosh, I need only 10.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> FYI: The CTS web site is www.ctscorp.com <http://www.ctscorp.com> .  You =
can
> download the pdf technical data from it's product section
> http://www.ctscorp.com/electro/251pot.htm
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Just a story of my "almost" dead pot to share with the community.  I woul=
d be
> so glad if anyone can tell the exact model of the pot.  My best guess wou=
ld be
> 251B15F104B5N1
>=20
>=20
>=20
> If anyone here can find an electronic supply store where you can buy this
> model, please let me know.  Also, have anyone used the Cougar stick mod "=
Hall
> effect sensor" from a cubpilot?  It would be great if you can tell how do=
 you
> like it.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Sukit Sittisudjatum
>=20
> Bangkok, Thailand
>=20
> www.thaiflight.com <http://www.thaiflight.com>
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =20
>=20

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Jay, 
 
Thanks for the understanding, Jay. &nbsp;I really wanted an economical solu=
tion that everyone could buy, but I also want it to be right. 
 
The two seem to be mutually exclusive, so I would rather see someone bitch =
about the price once than complain about the quality forever. 
 
You make a good point about the cost of mods to the Cougar base, just to ma=
ke it work correctly. &nbsp;I had not really considered that. &nbsp;Those mo=
ds do not address the form factor issue that the Cougar base has (i.e., does=
n&#8217;t fit into the side console correctly) and they can&#8217;t address =
the feel (limited movement and force sensitive). 
 
This does both and adds a much greater reliability to the system, too. &nbs=
p;&nbsp;Like HALL Effect pots, LVDT is even more reliable (no mechanically m=
oving parts that are in contact with each other to wear out). 
 
I&#8217;ll keep the group posted as the project matures. &nbsp;Right now I =
am happy to say that it does work and it works very well, indeed. &nbsp;It h=
as been a long road to get this far and it doesn&#8217;t cost $50,000 to mak=
e. &nbsp;;-) 
 
Marv 
 
On 3/3/03 10:48 AM, &quot;Joseph Fagner&quot; &lt;crease-guard@attbi.com&gt=
; wrote: 
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>=
$1500 is high, but nothing I&#8217;ve done so far is cheap. &nbsp;Will you m=
ake it if I pay for it? &nbsp;Not that I can pay for it at the moment, but i=
f you&#8217;ll make it, I&#8217;ll save for it and get it. &nbsp;Let me expl=
ain my rationale to others who may think I&#8217;m crazy. &nbsp;What would t=
he real thing cost? &nbsp;A truck load more that $1500, right? &nbsp;Marv, I=
 presume you wired it into the cougar&#8217;s innards as you had mentioned p=
reviously? &nbsp;This alone is no small feat and well worth the ease it will=
 be to maintain the cougar&#8217;s programmability for me, the end user. &nb=
sp;Now, consider the other mods it would take to get a Cougar to &#8220;feel=
&#8221; good without the dead spots at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o&#8217;clock. &nbsp;T=
here is a mod out there for about $475 that will do this. &nbsp;Add in the H=
E sensors for the stick at $130 and you are now at $605. &nbsp;But, you stil=
l have to mod the cougar somehow to make it useful and out of the way of the=
 instruments and you still really won&#8217;t have that realism. &nbsp;I wan=
t maximum realism and I&#8217;m willing to pay for it. &nbsp;If you think ab=
out it, some of us drop $3000 on a projector for the maximum visual realism,=
 what would be the next thing in line? &nbsp;My opinion would be the HOTAS s=
ince that is where your hands and thought will be a big chunk of time. &nbsp=
;So, I don&#8217;t think $1500 is an unreasonable amount to ask for all the =
time and effort you have placed into this. &nbsp;So build away, I want one! =
&nbsp;And damn, 1/1000 of a volt! &nbsp;I can&#8217;t even imagine how wonde=
rful it feels. 
 
 
 
Jay 
 
 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-admin@simp=
its.org] On Behalf Of Marv De Beque 
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 5:12 AM 
To: simpits-tech@simpits.org 
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Cougar's Spiking Pot! LVDT Side StickPro=
totype WORKS! 
 
 
 
Jay, 
 
Well I just got it working last night and it ROCKS!!!! 
 
However, don&#8217;t get too excited. &nbsp;&nbsp;The cost of this baby is =
way out of site (probably $1500). 
 
It is complex and the cost of the parts alone is $400, let alone the labor =
to build it. 
 
Still, the performance is out of this world. &nbsp;This thing has a noise a=
nd jitter of under 1/1000 volt! &nbsp;And that is on one of those bread boar=
ds. &nbsp;Mechanically is feels great. &nbsp;Recentering repeatability is ab=
out 1%. &nbsp;&nbsp;Tastes great, too. &nbsp;;-) 
 
I just put the thread up at: 
 
htt=
p://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=3D31723&amp;goto=3Dnewpo=
st 
 
Marv 
 
 
 
On 3/3/03 3:11 AM, &quot;Joseph Fagner&quot; &lt;crease-guard@attbi.com&gt;=
 wrote: 
 
Sukit, I hav=
e the HE sensor on my stick (am currently awaiting the throttle mod as I am =
getting pot spikes in the throttle as well!). &nbsp;I could go on and on abo=
ut how great they are (they are worth the money, trust me). &nbsp;GET THE MO=
D!! &nbsp;My stick is as smooth as a baby&#8217;s bottom and absolutely no s=
piking whatsoever. &nbsp;The HE sensors Cub pilot uses are supposedly rated =
for 15,000,000 cycles (probably live longer that I will). &nbsp;Don&#8217;t =
waste your time or efforts on crappy pots that you will just have to change =
over and over again. &nbsp;In the long run, the HE sensors will be cheaper a=
nd save you a lot of headaches. &nbsp;Order both mods at once, as I have bee=
n waiting about 2-3 months for my throttle mod simply because Cub gets a ton=
 of orders. &nbsp;I have two cougars, one of which will be completely HE sen=
sors with Ian Johnston&#8217;s Uber cougar mod and the other I am planning o=
n using with Marv&#8217;s LVDT stick base when he gets it done. &nbsp;I am g=
oing to have Cub add on a second HE sensor on my throttle mod when it&#8217;=
s time for the throttle in my pit. Hope this helps. 
 
 
 
Jay 
 
 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-admin@simp=
its.org] On Behalf Of Sittisudjatum, Sukit 
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 1:26 AM 
To: simpits-tech@simpits.org 
Subject: [simpits-tech] Cougar's Spiking Pot! 
 
 
 
Considering the working hours I've=
 been using it, the pots in my Cougar set shouldn't have a well-known &quot;=
spiking&quot; problem! &nbsp;But it happened to the pot in my throttle last =
weekend. &nbsp;I just noticed it when I can't get to the idle position when =
I flew a DC-3 in MSFS2002. &nbsp;Then, I tested it in Foxy analyzer software=
, and accepted that there's a problem. 
 
 
 
I checked in the hardware s=
ection of the official cougar web pages, and saw that there's a Q&amp;A abou=
t fixing the spiking pot! &nbsp;Gezzz... this must happen to many cougar own=
ers, so they have the Q&amp;A listed. &nbsp;I experienced fixing a spiking p=
ot in my F-22 stick (FCLS+TQS) and it went well that time, so this shouldn't=
 be a big deal with a small CTS pot. &nbsp;But it's not, after deassemble th=
e pot, clean out the dust, putting grease, and put them all in the positions=
.... there's still some noticable (and unacceptable) spiking !!!! (It was an=
 unhappy weekend to me). &nbsp;I thought I have to check the OEM web site, a=
nd see if I can buy .. may be 10 pots! as spare parts. 
 
 
 
I found the CTS web site, printed =
out the product catalog, and I even found that there's a distributor in Bang=
kok (a big surprise to me). &nbsp;I suddenly called the distributor, a sale =
person was not very kind. &nbsp;I was told that they have some samples for t=
he customers, and the minimum order will be as lessas 10,000 pots!!!! Gosh, =
I need only 10. 
 
 
 
FYI: The CTS web site is www.ctsco=
rp.com &lt;http://www.ctscorp.com&gt; . &nbsp;You can download the pdf techn=
ical data from it's product section http://www.ctscorp.com/electro/251pot.ht=
m 
 
 
 
Just a story of my &quot;almost&qu=
ot; dead pot to share with the community. &nbsp;I would be so glad if anyone=
 can tell the exact model of the pot. &nbsp;My best guess would be 251B15=
F104B5N1 
 
 
 
If anyone here can find an electro=
nic supply store where you can buy this model, please let me know. &nbsp;Als=
o, have anyone used the Cougar stick mod &quot;Hall effect sensor&quot; from=
 a cubpilot? &nbsp;It would be great if you can tell how do you like it. 
 
 
 
 
 
Sukit Sittisudjatum 
 
Bangkok, Tha=
iland 
 
www.thaiflight.com &lt;http://www.=
thaiflight.com&gt; 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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