[simpits-tech] Gsuit-Aircompressor-F4
Marv De Beque
simpits-tech@simpits.org
Sun, 15 Jun 2003 10:49:50 -0400
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Sounds like the problem is resolved. Good work.
On 6/15/03 10:33 AM, "Craig Rochester" <johncraigroch@msn.com> wrote:
> Hi Marv,
>
> Do you mean a ball check valve? I tried that first, but couldn't get it to
> work. A quick exhaust valve(QEV), is a 3-way valve where the exhaust flow
> moves a seat(usually a rubber disk/seal) like this:
> http://www.polyconn.com/pdf_files/quick_exhaust_valves.pdf
> <http://www.polyconn.com/pdf_files/quick_exhaust_valves.pdf> I use these in
> my work for big pneumatic control valves that would take to long to exhaust
> through the solenoid valve. They work great for higher pressures in the 0-100
> psi range. I tried the one in the above link on my rig, but the friction in
> the seat was too much.
>
> I had some pneumatic cylinders I bought on ebay. I used a 1.5" piston with
> two cup seals in a PVC plumbing fitting(has a bit larger ID than 1.5").
> http://pages.zdnet.com/johncraigrochester/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictur
> es/new_qev.jpg
> <http://pages.zdnet.com/johncraigrochester/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictu
> res/new_qev.jpg> The larger cylinder ID and dry graphite lubricant yielded
> the desired sensitivity and exhaust capacity. But... I had problems with the
> cup seals sticking open when exhaust was complete. In the pic the cup seal
> nearest the check valve slide over the exhaust holes. The cup seals would
> stick on the edges of the holes. I tried a bunch of thing to stop this;
> beveled edges, staggered, drilled on angle... Finally I changed to an "O" ring
> against a metal seat design, which finally worked.
>
> The performance from the QEV rig really made the difference between a cool
> feedback for the magnitude of the G-force vs.. an even better real-time
> feedback of small force changes. Quantitatively, the regulator without the
> QEV --> a 1/4 psi reduction in pressure takes about 1 second to exhaust. With
> the QEV the exhaust is almost immediate(faster than I can measure). This feels
> much different in the suit. Without the quick response, the small changes
> aren't as noticeable; it takes about 1 psi change to perceive the reduction.
> With the quick exhaust small changes in stick position(=small G-force changes)
> are felt in the suit. It's like the way a motion platform uses "wash out" to
> return to neutral force, only we don't want the wash out.
>
> Craig R.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org]On
> Behalf Of Marv De Beque
> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 8:33 AM
> To: simpits-tech@simpits.org
> Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Gsuit-Aircompressor-F4
>
>> Craig,
>>
>> Have you considered a ball valve for the exhaust port?
>>
>>
>> On 6/15/03 8:08 AM, "Craig Rochester" <johncraigroch@msn.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Albert,
>>>
>>> Cautionary note: working with compressed air is inherently dangerous, as
>>> there's a lot of stored energy.
>>>
>>> I bought the regulators and servos on eBay for about $45US. There's another
>>> $15 in miscellaneous materials. You'd need a lathe to make the piston for
>>> the "quick exhaust valve(QEV)". The servo controller I'm using costs $54US
>>> and is a "no-brainer" to use with the program written by the guy in Norway.
>>>
>>> I use a nail gun compressor @ 100 psi supply pressure. I've tested down to
>>> 40 psi. You need the compressor at a higher pressure to ensure fast
>>> response. One of the Norway guys is using an old refrigerator compressor.
>>> He says it is very quiet and has the required capacity. If it were me, I'd
>>> go for the free compressor and run a long air hose to the computer.
>>>
>>> I've been struggling with the QEV design. I've made a couple and they're
>>> being tested. When the design is proven reliable, I'll post construction
>>> details. I don't intend to make the rigs for sale.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org
>>> [mailto:simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org]On Behalf Of Albert
>>> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 4:16 AM
>>> To: simpits-tech@simpits.org
>>> Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Gsuit-Aircompressor-F4
>>>
>>>> G'day Craig,
>>>>
>>>> Good to hear from you. The concept of the servo pushes down on the
>>>> diaphragm of a pressure regulator make sense to me. How it is constructed
>>>> is something I am not too sure at this stage. However, I am researching and
>>>> evaluating whether its a thing to do to my own project. After reading on
>>>> the simpit forum link. I wonder how much will a normal regular/ exhaust
>>>> valve be worth? Like yourself, I have never work with a servo previously,
>>>> but I am slowly coming to terms with what it does :) Judging from the
>>>> amount of PSI required to inflat the Gsuit... will something like a small
>>>> compressor typical for airbrushing be good for the purpose?
>>>>
>>>> A mate was going to give me a 50PSI air compressor (for nail gun) but when
>>>> I told him the most I will need from a compressor is only about 10 PSI. He
>>>> asked me what on earth am I doing with it? YOu should have seen the guy
>>>> trying hard to understand what on earth I am trying to do :) Judging by
>>>> your experience, it sounds like it really only need 4psi to do the job. So
>>>> I thought something small will hopefully be cheaper and also quieter
>>>> compared to a larger louder compressor.
>>>>
>>>> Similar to the problem of trying to cool down my cockpit previously with an
>>>> active cooling system. (At the moment, the canopy is not on the pit yet. I
>>>> use a normal household rotary fan blowing air in from the location of the
>>>> rudders) Space and noise will be an issue I have to take into
>>>> consideration. Did I mention budget as well :)
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for sharing your insight with us Craig.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Al
>>>> Sydney, Oz
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: Craig Rochester <mailto:johncraigroch@msn.com>
>>>> To: simpits-tech@simpits.org
>>>> Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 3:12 PM
>>>> Subject: RE: [simpits-tech] Gsuit-Aircompressor-F4
>>>>
>>>> Hi Al,
>>>>
>>>> I've been working with a couple of guys in Norway on this(I'm in US). We
>>>> use the "shared file" in Falcon4 to get the G data. One of the other guys
>>>> wrote a small program that runs in the background with Falcon. The program
>>>> takes the G data and drives a servo. The servo pushes down on the
>>>> diaphragm of a pressure regulator that controls the pressure to the suit.
>>>>
>>>> The max pressure in high G maneuvers(real jet) is about 10 psi. The
>>>> military uses this in simulators at about 5 psi max. I use mine at 4 psi
>>>> max as 5 psi is starting to hurt.
>>>>
>>>> I use mine more as a motion cue device than a simulation of the G-suit
>>>> function. I've added a component to increase the speed and sensitivity of
>>>> the exhaust part of the regulator. By having immediate response, changes
>>>> in G feel like real motion(inertial forces).
>>>>
>>>> I locate my compressor 50' away in another room. The rig makes a fair
>>>> amount of hissing a farting; I wrap a towel around it and reduce most of
>>>> the noise.
>>>>
>>>> There's info here:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.simpits.org/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=55&forum=1&28
>>>> <http://www.simpits.org/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=55&forum=1&28>
>>>> http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20800
>>>> <http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20800>
>>>>
>>>> Craig R.
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org
>>>>> [mailto:simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org]On Behalf Of Albert
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 7:30 PM
>>>>> To: simpits-tech@simpits.org
>>>>> Subject: [simpits-tech] Gsuit-Aircompressor-F4
>>>>>
>>>>> I think someone has already been using a air compressor controlled by a
>>>>> computer to inflat a Gsuit for their flight simulator?
>>>>>
>>>>> My Gsuit is coming in on Wednesday (Thanks to Sukit from Thailand) and I
>>>>> was wondering how the setup is. What kind of computer, software and
>>>>> compressor are used and if it can be used in conjunction with falcon 4?
>>>>>
>>>>> My other concerns are the noise factor from the compressor...as well as
>>>>> the pain factor :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance,
>>>>>
>>>>> Al
>>>>> Sydney, Oz
>>>
>>
>
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<TITLE>Re: [simpits-tech] Gsuit-Aircompressor-F4</TITLE>
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<FONT FACE=3D"Verdana">Sounds like the problem is resolved. Good =
work.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 6/15/03 10:33 AM, "Craig Rochester" <johncraigroch@msn.com&=
gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Hi Marv,<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Do you mean a ball check valve? I tried tha=
t first, but couldn't get it to work. A quick exhaust valve(QEV), is a 3-way=
valve where the exhaust flow moves a seat(usually a rubber disk/seal) like =
this: http://www.polyconn.com/pdf_files/quick_exhaust_valves.pdf</FONT><FONT=
FACE=3D"Verdana"> <http://www.polyconn.com/pdf_files/quick_exhaust_valves.=
pdf> </FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> I use these in my work for big pneu=
matic control valves that would take to long to exhaust through the solenoid=
valve. They work great for higher pressures in the 0-100 psi range. &=
nbsp;I tried the one in the above link on my rig, but the friction in the se=
at was too much.<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I had some pneumatic cylinders I bought on ebay. =
I used a 1.5" piston with two cup seals in a PVC plumbing fitting=
(has a bit larger ID than 1.5"). http://pages.zdnet.com/johncraig=
rochester/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/new_qev.jpg</FONT><FONT FAC=
E=3D"Verdana"> <http://pages.zdnet.com/johncraigrochester/sitebuilderconten=
t/sitebuilderpictures/new_qev.jpg> </FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> The l=
arger cylinder ID and dry graphite lubricant yielded the desired sensitivity=
and exhaust capacity. But... I had problems with the cup seals sticking ope=
n when exhaust was complete. In the pic the cup seal nearest the check valve=
slide over the exhaust holes. The cup seals would stick on the edges of the=
holes. I tried a bunch of thing to stop this; beveled edges, staggered, dri=
lled on angle... Finally I changed to an "O" ring against a metal =
seat design, which finally worked.<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">The performance from the QEV rig really made the =
difference between a cool feedback for the magnitude of the G-force vs.. an =
even better real-time feedback of small force changes. Quantitatively,=
the regulator without the QEV --> a 1/4 psi reduction in pressure takes =
about 1 second to exhaust. With the QEV the exhaust is almost immediate(fast=
er than I can measure). This feels much different in the suit. Without the q=
uick response, the small changes aren't as noticeable; it takes about 1 psi =
change to perceive the reduction. With the quick exhaust small changes in st=
ick position(=3Dsmall G-force changes) are felt in the suit. It's like the way=
a motion platform uses "wash out" to return to neutral force, onl=
y we don't want the wash out.<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Craig R.<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"> <BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman"> -----Original Message--=
---</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"> <BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><B>From:</B> simpits-tech-admin@simpits.or=
g [mailto:simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Marv De Beque<B=
R>
<B>Sent:</B> Sunday, June 15, 2003 8:33 AM<BR>
<B>To:</B> simpits-tech@simpits.org<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [simpits-tech] Gsuit-Aircompressor-F4<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana">Craig,<BR>
<BR>
Have you considered a ball valve for the exhaust port?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 6/15/03 8:08 AM, "Craig Rochester" <johncraigroch@msn.com&g=
t; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">=
Hi Albert,<BR>
</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><B><U>Cautio=
nary note: </U></B>working with compressed air is inherently dangerous, as t=
here's a lot of stored energy.<BR>
</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I bought the=
regulators and servos on eBay for about $45US. There's another $15 in=
miscellaneous materials. You'd need a lathe to make the piston for th=
e "quick exhaust valve(QEV)". The servo controller I'm using=
costs $54US and is a "no-brainer" to use with the program written=
by the guy in Norway.<BR>
</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I use a nail=
gun compressor @ 100 psi supply pressure. I've tested down to 40 psi.=
You need the compressor at a higher pressure to ensure fast response.=
One of the Norway guys is using an old refrigerator compressor.  =
;He says it is very quiet and has the required capacity. If it were me=
, I'd go for the free compressor and run a long air hose to the computer.<BR=
>
</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I've been st=
ruggling with the QEV design. I've made a couple and they're being tes=
ted. When the design is proven reliable, I'll post construction detail=
s. I don't intend to make the rigs for sale.<BR>
</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Craig<BR>
</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman">-----Original Message---=
--<BR>
<B>From:</B> simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-admin@simp=
its.org]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Albert<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Sunday, June 15, 2003 4:16 AM<BR>
<B>To:</B> simpits-tech@simpits.org<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> Re: [simpits-tech] Gsuit-Aircompressor-F4<BR>
<BR>
</FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">G'day Craig,<BR=
>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Good to hear from you. The concept=
of the servo pushes down on the diaphragm of a pressure regulator make sens=
e to me. How it is constructed is something I am not too sure at this stage.=
However, I am researching and evaluating whether its a thing to do to my ow=
n project. After reading on the simpit forum link. I wonder how much will a =
normal regular/ exhaust valve be worth? Like yourself, I have never work wit=
h a servo previously, but I am slowly coming to terms with what it does :) J=
udging from the amount of PSI required to inflat the Gsuit... will something=
like a small compressor typical for airbrushing be good for the purpose? <B=
R>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">A mate was going to give me a 50PS=
I air compressor (for nail gun) but when I told him the most I will need fro=
m a compressor is only about 10 PSI. He asked me what on earth am I doing wi=
th it? YOu should have seen the guy trying hard to understand what on earth =
I am trying to do :) Judging by your experience, it sounds like it really on=
ly need 4psi to do the job. So I thought something small will hopefully be c=
heaper and also quieter compared to a larger louder compressor. <BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Similar to the problem of trying t=
o cool down my cockpit previously with an active cooling system. (At the mom=
ent, the canopy is not on the pit yet. I use a normal household rotary fan b=
lowing air in from the location of the rudders) Space and noise will be an i=
ssue I have to take into consideration. Did I mention budget as well :) <BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Thanks for sharing your insight wi=
th us Craig.<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
Al<BR>
Sydney, Oz<BR>
</FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana">----- Original Message ----- <BR>
<B>From:</B> Craig Rochester <mailto:johncraigroch@msn.com> <BR=
>
<B>To:</B> simpits-tech@simpits.org <BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Sunday, June 15, 2003 3:12 PM<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> RE: [simpits-tech] Gsuit-Aircompressor-F4<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Hi Al,<BR>
</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I've been wo=
rking with a couple of guys in Norway on this(I'm in US). We use the &=
quot;shared file" in Falcon4 to get the G data. One of the other =
guys wrote a small program that runs in the background with Falcon. Th=
e program takes the G data and drives a servo. The servo pushes down o=
n the diaphragm of a pressure regulator that controls the pressure to the su=
it.<BR>
</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">The max pres=
sure in high G maneuvers(real jet) is about 10 psi. The military uses =
this in simulators at about 5 psi max. I use mine at 4 psi max as 5 psi is s=
tarting to hurt.<BR>
</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I use mine m=
ore as a motion cue device than a simulation of the G-suit function. I=
've added a component to increase the speed and sensitivity of the exhaust p=
art of the regulator. By having immediate response, changes in G feel =
like real motion(inertial forces).<BR>
</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I locate my =
compressor 50' away in another room. The rig makes a fair amount of hi=
ssing a farting; I wrap a towel around it and reduce most of the noise.<BR>
</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">There's info=
here:<BR>
</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">http://www.s=
impits.org/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=3D55&forum=3D1&28 <http://www.s=
impits.org/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=3D55&amp;forum=3D1&amp;28> <BR>
http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=3D&threadid=3D20800 <=
;http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=3D&amp;threadid=3D20800=
> <BR>
</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF"><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">Craig R.<BR>
</FONT></FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Times New Roman=
">-----Original Message-----<BR>
<B>From:</B> simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-admin@simp=
its.org]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Albert<BR>
<B>Sent:</B> Saturday, June 14, 2003 7:30 PM<BR>
<B>To:</B> simpits-tech@simpits.org<BR>
<B>Subject:</B> [simpits-tech] Gsuit-Aircompressor-F4<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">I think someone has already been using a air comp=
ressor controlled by a computer to inflat a Gsuit for their flight simulator=
?<BR>
<BR>
My Gsuit is coming in on Wednesday (Thanks to Sukit from Thailand) and I wa=
s wondering how the setup is. What kind of computer, software and compressor=
are used and if it can be used in conjunction with falcon 4? <BR>
<BR>
My other concerns are the noise factor from the compressor...as well as the=
pain factor :)<BR>
<BR>
Thanks in advance,<BR>
<BR>
Al<BR>
Sydney, Oz<BR>
</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana"><BR>
</FONT>
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