[simpits-tech] Falcon4 Data

Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:34:05 +0100

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Sure, if you have a framerate of 120 fps, and you drop to 40 fps, that will
be something you can live with, right?

Problem is, even with a high performing system, it still leaves no room for
compression. I have an algorithm in place, but this one hurts even more.
For example on my system 35 fps without extraction, drops to 2fps with
extraction WITH compression.

Compression is needed in order to distribute to an external display.

So you see, is really bad right now. While technically speaking it can be
done real fast if (big IF) I have the renderer render to a surface in system
memory. I then can access this surface and compress it without the enormous
loss in performance.

At least DX8 is required to do that, and that's not available in Falcon4
right now. And neither is multi-monitor support, so there is no obvious
solution right now. But I will keep working on it.

Erwin.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Crowley [mailto:ccrowley@mccrowley.com] 
Sent: donderdag 13 februari 2003 11:26
To: simpits-tech@simpits.org
Subject: RE: [simpits-tech] Falcon4 Data

Just Curious Erwin,
What kind of computer were you trying to extract the graphics data from?
Would this be a problem that a leap in CPU horsepower or number of CPUs
would solve? I am not a programmer but, the fact that you were able to
extract data from video memory from the computer is quite a feat (IMHO). 
V/R
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org
[mailto:simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org]On Behalf Of Erwin Neyt
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 5:44 AM
To: 'simpits-tech@simpits.org'
Subject: RE: [simpits-tech] Falcon4 Data

May I comment on this?

Well I will:

First there is the issue of releasing an exe. I personally think it's a bad
idea to start releasing .exe's on your own. It could provoke a 'hostile'
reaction from the current developers, which could hurt the community as a
whole. It seems that G2I has some plans for OIR and F5, and although there
is some scepsis among most of us, it seems logical to wait and see where the
future of Falcon is progressing to. I spoke to G2I about this, and they have
shown a lot of interest in this matter, so I hope they will commit their
support to the current available data and put some effort in making the
display data available.
And please don't start flaming G2I, they took up a challange to develop a
new version of Falcon, only to find that the community (from which G2I
spawned) turned their back on them (well that's the impression I got reading
the forums). I think they lost sight of what we really want: an even better
hard-core F-16 sim. 

Second on the actual modifications to get to the MFD data, I have tried to
accomplish a way to get to this data, only to find the current graphics
engine is not able to provide this data fast enough to be acceptable. 
Some benchmark results:
I got a system running F4. On this system I get 35 fps without MFD
extraction. When I enable MFD extraction for only 1 MFD image (240x240), the
frame rates drop to 15 fps. That's too much a penalty IMO.
So I can conclude: with the current gfx engine (DX7) there is no structural
way to solve the MFD extraction problem. 
Or to put it more technical: As long as there is no support for rendering to
a surface in system memory (needs DX8+) extracting a surface from display
memory is way to slow.
There is however an alternate approach (the above is focussed on
distributing data). This would involve implementing multi-monitor support,
and render the MFD to a second (local) display. (Currently there is no
multi-monitor support in Falcon)

so far my comments,

Erwin Neyt
-----Original Message-----
From: L39driver@aol.com [mailto:L39driver@aol.com] 
Sent: woensdag 12 februari 2003 9:23
To: simpits-tech@simpits.org
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Falcon4 Data
yes 

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<DIV><SPAN class=3D751292411-13022003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Sure,=20
if you have a framerate of 120 fps, and you drop to 40 fps, that will =
be=20
something you can live with, right?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D751292411-13022003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D751292411-13022003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Problem is, even with a high performing system, it still =
leaves no room=20
for compression. I have an algorithm in place, but this one hurts even=20
more.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D751292411-13022003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>For=20
example on my system 35 fps without extraction, drops to 2fps with =
extraction=20
WITH compression.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D751292411-13022003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D751292411-13022003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Compression is needed in order to distribute to an external=20
display.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D751292411-13022003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D751292411-13022003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>So you=20
see, is really bad right now. While technically speaking it can be done =
real=20
fast if (big IF) I have the renderer render to a surface in system =
memory. I=20
then can access this surface and compress it without the enormous loss =
in=20
performance.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D751292411-13022003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D751292411-13022003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>At=20
least DX8 is required to do that, and that's not available in Falcon4 =
right now.=20
And neither is multi-monitor support, so there is no obvious solution =
right now.=20
But I will keep working on it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D751292411-13022003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D751292411-13022003><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Erwin.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
Chris Crowley=20
  [mailto:ccrowley@mccrowley.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> donderdag 13 =
februari 2003=20
  11:26<BR><B>To:</B> simpits-tech@simpits.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:=20
  [simpits-tech] Falcon4 Data<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DSection1>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">Just=20
  Curious Erwin,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">What=20
  kind of computer were you trying to extract the graphics data from? =
Would this=20
  be a problem that a leap in CPU horsepower or number of CPUs would =
solve? I am=20
  not a programmer but, the fact that you were able to extract data =
from video=20
  memory from the computer is quite a feat (IMHO).=20
  <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">V/R<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt">Chris<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DEmailStyle15><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: =
12.0pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]><![endif]>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>=

  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3DTahoma =
color=3Dblack=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Tahoma">-----Original=20
  Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> =

simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org =
[mailto:simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org]<SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of Erwin =
Neyt <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent: Wednesday, February 12, =
2003 5:44=20
 AM To:=20
 'simpits-tech@simpits.org' <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject: RE: [simpits-tech] =
Falcon4=20
 Data
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]><![endif]>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>
 May I=20
 comment on this?<SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">&nbsp;<FONT=20
 color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 Well I=20
 will:<SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">&nbsp;<FONT=20
 color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 First=20
 there is the issue of releasing an exe. I personally think it's a bad =
idea to=20
 start releasing .exe's on your own. It could provoke a 'hostile' =
reaction from=20
 the current developers, which could hurt the community as a whole. It =
seems=20
 that G2I has some plans for OIR and F5, and although there is some =
scepsis=20
 among most of us, it seems logical to wait and see where the future =
of Falcon=20
 is progressing to. I spoke to&nbsp;G2I about this, and they have =
shown a lot=20
 of interest in this matter, so I hope they will commit their support =
to the=20
 current available data and put some effort in making the display data =

available.<SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 And=20
 please don't start flaming G2I, they took up a challange to develop a =
new=20
 version of Falcon, only to find that the community (from which G2I =
spawned)=20
 turned their back on them (well that's the impression I got reading =
the=20
 forums). I think they lost sight of what we really want: an even =
better=20
 hard-core F-16 sim. <SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">&nbsp;<FONT=20
 color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 Second=20
 on the actual modifications to get to the MFD data, I have tried to =
accomplish=20
 a way to get to this data, only to find the current graphics engine =
is not=20
 able to provide this data fast enough to be acceptable. =
<FONT=20
 color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 Some=20
 benchmark results:<SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 I got a=20
 system running F4. On this system I get 35 fps&nbsp;without MFD =
extraction.=20
 When I enable MFD extraction for only 1 MFD image (240x240), the =
frame rates=20
 drop to 15 fps. That's too much a penalty IMO.<FONT=20
 color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 So I can=20
 conclude: with the current gfx engine (DX7) there is no structural =
way to=20
 solve the MFD extraction problem. <SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 Or to=20
 put it more technical: As long as there is no support for rendering =
to a=20
 surface in system memory (needs DX8+) extracting a surface from =
display memory=20
 is way to slow.<SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 There is=20
 however an alternate approach (the above is focussed on distributing =
data).=20
 This would involve implementing multi-monitor support, and render the =
MFD to a=20
 second (local) display. (Currently there is no multi-monitor support =
in=20
 Falcon)<SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">&nbsp;<FONT=20
 color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 so far=20
 my comments,<SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 <SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">&nbsp;<FONT=20
 color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 Erwin=20
 Neyt<SPAN=20
 style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p>
 <DIV=20
 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: blue =
1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
 <P class=3DMsoNormal=20
 style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: =
0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 39.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; =
BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; =
mso-border-left-alt: solid blue 1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt"><FONT=20
 face=3DTahoma color=3Dblack size=3D2><SPAN=20
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Tahoma">-----Original=20
 Message----- From: =

  L39driver@aol.com [mailto:L39driver@aol.com] <BR><B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> woensdag 12 februari =
2003=20
  9:23<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>=20
  simpits-tech@simpits.org<BR><B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [simpits-tech] =
Falcon4=20
  Data</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
  style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal=20
  style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: =
39.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: =
medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-border-left-alt: solid blue =
1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; mso-margin-bottom-alt: =
auto"><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3Dblack size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">yes</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3Dblack><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">=20
  </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
  style=3D"COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: =
windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY=
></HTML>

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