[simpits-tech] F-16 Force Transducer Side Stick
Sukit, Sittisudjatum
simpits-tech@simpits.org
Wed, 16 Oct 2002 21:44:28 -0400
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Marv,
Considering what you've explained, I have no doubt that the mod kit will be
what I really want :)
I also plan to put a canopy's frame on my pit... The height of the frame
will give a feeling that we really sit in the pit during a flight, not just
leave the canopy opened like most all the commercial pits. For those who
has to live with the original Cougar base will face a problem with that 4 cm
space between the stick and the canopy rail, the software setting that we
can do on the Cougar would not help, too. Definitely, only the replica
stick base will allow all the panels installed correctly on the right
console. I can't see any other alternative though... that leads to the
problem with the size of gimbals again :(
About your mechanical stick, I have your drawing (the one you posted)
somewhere... I was impressed :)
Now, a question about the throttle... I did some measurement on the throttle
quadrant and found 65 degrees traveling from engine-cutoff to maximum
afterburner position. Then for the Cougar throttle, the traveling from 0 to
100% is 60 degrees. Can anyone confirm this?
Sukit Sittisudjatum
www.thaiflight.com <http://www.thaiflight.com>
Bangkok, Thailand
-----Original Message-----
From: Marv De Beque [ mailto:mdebeque@woh.rr.com
<mailto:mdebeque@woh.rr.com> ]
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:08 PM
To: simpits-tech@simpits.org
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] F-16 Force Transducer Side Stick
Sukit,
The design I have should prevent no problems with regard to life span and it
is very simple (which makes for better reliability).
However, until I get my Cougar (maybe today or tomorrow), I can't complete
the design.
I have heard about the adjustment to limit the grip's travel on the Cougar.
For me it would not work since I plan to put a canopy on my cockpit and the
canopy rails are very close to the side of the stick. You would not be able
to move the stick to the right without contacting the canopy. I think there
is about 4 cm between the side of the stick grip and the canopy rail.
For those that do not want a canopy, I think there are people interested in
just having the "feel" of a real F-16 stick to add some realism to the sim.
Also, my base will allow those with a cockpit to have all of the panels
(LRUs) installed in the right side console.
As a side note. My original no-move side stick I built is actually
mechanical, not electrical. I used standard PVC 1.5" plumbing tubing as the
core. The base is made from hardwood, shaped to the exact same size as the
real base.
The plastic PVC pipe runs down through the side console all of the way to
the bottom of the cockpit. The top of the PVC pipe has three nylon disks
stacked on top of each other. The center disk has a long 1/2" steel rod
attached to it. The rod extends downward to the bottom where I mounted a
CTS mini-stick. This is a tiny mechanical joystick with 100K pots.
Back to the top set of disks... The center disk is sandwiched between two
thicker disks that bolt together. Those thicker disks press fit into the
top of the PVC pipe. By adjusting the bolts, I can set the tension for how
stiff the stick moves. The 1/2" steel rod extends up past the top of the
stick base and is what the grip is mounted to.
The problem with the design was that the force required to move the grip is
the same in all directions. So, I loosened those top bolts and added
springs at the bottom of the steel rod to make the side to side and front to
back independently adjustable. That works pretty well.
My mechanical system only has about 1/4" of movement and 1/8" of that is due
to the plastic grip flexing.
Marv
--
> From: "Sukit, Sittisudjatum" <SukitS@state.gov>
> Reply-To: simpits-tech@simpits.org
> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:52:54 -0400
> To: "'simpits-tech@simpits.org'" <simpits-tech@simpits.org>
> Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] F-16 Force Transducer Side Stick
>
> Thank you, Marv and Erwin. You guys have so many information on hands.
>
> "While the transducer I am using has no movement, there will be a special
> coupler between the grip and the transducer that will allow for a slight
bit
> of movement, just like the real thing."
>
> I'm thinking about that, too. The combination of transducer and some kind
> of hard spring or rubber ring to allow movement. But the life of a the
> rubber may not as long as we expect...then we have to think about spare
part
> again. I'm wondering if there is a possibility for ordering very small
> quantity (less than 500 sets) of those small parts that you can't
> manufactured them by yourself (spring, bush, rubber, etc.)
>
> During the weekend, I read a Cougar manual and found that we can set
X-axis
> and Y-axis to get a little movement, also get more sensitivity if wanted.
> To prove it, I brought the baby out from the box and get it connected ...
> man, it's so much easier than setting the F-22+TQS that have been used for
> years. When activate the Cougar Hotas Software and set the movement of X
> and Y axis to minimum (100% at the side bar for both upper and lower
> side)... then having the sensitivity of both axis set to 32 (maximum
> position, then the shape of the graph becomes 'S' curve instead of '/'
> shape).
>
>
> I tested it in the Falcon 4.0 flight, and found very interesting result, I
> can reduce the movement the stick from ~60 degrees (30 to the left, 30 to
> the right, and the same for pull and push) to something less than 30
degrees
> (15 degree on each side). By setting the sensitivity to the maximum
value,
> the stick responded very fast, I could perform a hard turn or full rolls
> just when move the stick to approx. 5 degrees out from the center. Next,
I
> set the sensitivity to zero, and found that it has to be a full 15 degrees
> from the center to get a full roll or hard turn.
>
> Sorry that I cannot remember the specific names of each values, but they
all
> show in the Cougar Control panel... and you Cougar owners should know what
I
> meant. My question is that 'Is it good enough compare to the real thing
by
> setting the Cougar this way?' and 'How can we eliminate the large gimbals
or
> make a modify kit with low cost to fit in a replica stick base?'
>
> Marv, please also try your Cougar (when arrive, of course) if the result
is
> appropriate.... Albert raised this cool idea when we had beer in Sydney.
>
>
>
> Sukit Sittisudjatum
>
> www.thaiflight.com < http://www.thaiflight.com <http://www.thaiflight.com>
>
>
> Bangkok, Thailand
>
>
> ----Original Message-----
> From: Marv De Beque [ < mailto:mdebeque@woh.rr.com
<mailto:mdebeque@woh.rr.com> >
> mailto:mdebeque@woh.rr.com <mailto:mdebeque@woh.rr.com> ]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 5:14 PM
> To: simpits-tech@simpits.org
> Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Re: F-16 Force Transducer Side Stick
>
> The transducer is fully compatible with either the EPIC or the PC game
port
> with a signal of 0 to 5 volt.
> Yes, my understanding is that the force required is +/- 25 lbs. for front
to
> back and +/- 10 lbs. for side to side.
> I want to make mine user adjustable from those numbers just cited down to
> something much lower. I don't know what the lower limit will be just yet.
> Should have that dialed out in a week or two.
> Sukit,
> I am not sure about the actual amount of stick movement on the real
> assembly. The earliest ones had none. Later, they added some play to give
> about 1/32", but it was different for some directions. I have heard rumor
> that they have relaxed the amount of movement even more to perhaps 1/4".
> Mine will have something between the two numbers I quoted above. I have
not
> decided on the exact amount, but I think 1/8" is a good compromise.
> While the transducer I am using has no movement, there will be a special
> coupler between the grip and the transducer that will allow for a slight
bit
> of movement, just like the real thing.
> Just like the my gauges, I am trying for a faithful replication of the
F-16
> side stick, right down to all of the shiny screws and various labels.
> I am looking into making the rubber boot that the modern Block 50 uses
> between the grip and the base. That will add the final touch. ;-)
> Marv
> --
>
>> From: "Sukit, Sittisudjatum" <SukitS@state.gov>
>> Reply-To: simpits-tech@simpits.org
>> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 03:37:27 -0400
>> To: "'simpits-tech@simpits.org'" <simpits-tech@simpits.org>
>> Subject: [simpits-tech] Re: F-16 Force Transducer Side Stick
>>
>> Marv,
>>
>> I remembered that someone (you?) gave the information about 25Ibs for
pull
>> and push, 19Ibs (or 10 Ibis) for side to side.... and the stick can be
> moved
>> about dia 0.25" on the top. Correct me if I'm wrong.
>>
>> I'm wondering if you're going to make a true replica, or a zero movement
>> stick? Cause the strain gauge gives us no movement... Also, do we need to
>> have EPIC card to convert the signal from your mod kit? Just curious.
>>
>> Sukit Sittisudjatum
>> www.thaiflight.com < < http://www.thaiflight.com
<http://www.thaiflight.com> >
> http://www.thaiflight.com <http://www.thaiflight.com> >
>>
>> Bangkok, Thailand
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Simpits-tech mailing list
> Simpits-tech@simpits.org
> < http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
<http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech> >
> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
<http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech>
> To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above
page.
> Thanks!
>
>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Marv,</FONT></DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Considering what you've explained, I have no
doubt that the mod kit will be what I really want :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I also plan to put a canopy's frame on my pit...
The height of the frame will give a feeling that we really sit in the pit
during a flight, not just leave the canopy opened like most all the
commercial pits. For those who has to live with the original Cougar base
will face a problem with that 4 cm space between the stick and the canopy rail,
the software setting that we can do on the Cougar would not help,
too. Definitely, only the replica stick base will allow all the panels
installed correctly on the right console. I can't see any other
alternative though... that leads to the problem with the size of gimbals again
:(</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>About your mechanical stick, I have your drawing
(the one you posted) somewhere... I was impressed :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>Now, a question about the
throttle... I did some measurement on the throttle quadrant and found 65 degrees
traveling from engine-cutoff to maximum afterburner position. Then for the
Cougar throttle, the traveling from 0 to 100% is 60 degrees. Can anyone
confirm this?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sukit Sittisudjatum</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><A
href="http://www.thaiflight.com">www.thaiflight.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bangkok, Thailand</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Marv De Beque [<A
href="mailto:mdebeque@woh.rr.com">mailto:mdebeque@woh.rr.com</A>]<BR>Sent:
Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:08 PM<BR>To: simpits-tech@simpits.org<BR>Subject:
Re: [simpits-tech] F-16 Force Transducer Side Stick<BR><BR><BR>Sukit,<BR><BR>The
design I have should prevent no problems with regard to life span and it<BR>is
very simple (which makes for better reliability).<BR><BR>However, until I get my
Cougar (maybe today or tomorrow), I can't complete<BR>the design.<BR><BR>I have
heard about the adjustment to limit the grip's travel on the Cougar.<BR>For me
it would not work since I plan to put a canopy on my cockpit and the<BR>canopy
rails are very close to the side of the stick. You would not be able<BR>to
move the stick to the right without contacting the canopy. I think
there<BR>is about 4 cm between the side of the stick grip and the canopy
rail.<BR><BR>For those that do not want a canopy, I think there are people
interested in<BR>just having the "feel" of a real F-16 stick to add some realism
to the sim.<BR><BR>Also, my base will allow those with a cockpit to have all of
the panels<BR>(LRUs) installed in the right side console.<BR><BR>As a side
note. My original no-move side stick I built is actually<BR>mechanical,
not electrical. I used standard PVC 1.5" plumbing tubing as
the<BR>core. The base is made from hardwood, shaped to the exact same size
as the<BR>real base.<BR><BR>The plastic PVC pipe runs down through the side
console all of the way to<BR>the bottom of the cockpit. The top of the PVC
pipe has three nylon disks<BR>stacked on top of each other. The center
disk has a long 1/2" steel rod<BR>attached to it. The rod extends downward
to the bottom where I mounted a<BR>CTS mini-stick. This is a tiny
mechanical joystick with 100K pots.<BR><BR>Back to the top set of disks...
The center disk is sandwiched between two<BR>thicker disks that bolt
together. Those thicker disks press fit into the<BR>top of the PVC
pipe. By adjusting the bolts, I can set the tension for how<BR>stiff the
stick moves. The 1/2" steel rod extends up past the top of the<BR>stick
base and is what the grip is mounted to.<BR><BR>The problem with the design was
that the force required to move the grip is<BR>the same in all directions.
So, I loosened those top bolts and added<BR>springs at the bottom of the steel
rod to make the side to side and front to<BR>back independently
adjustable. That works pretty well.<BR><BR>My mechanical system only has
about 1/4" of movement and 1/8" of that is due<BR>to the plastic grip
flexing.<BR><BR>Marv<BR>--<BR><BR><BR>> From: "Sukit, Sittisudjatum"
<SukitS@state.gov><BR>> Reply-To: simpits-tech@simpits.org<BR>>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 20:52:54 -0400<BR>> To: "'simpits-tech@simpits.org'"
<simpits-tech@simpits.org><BR>> Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] F-16
Force Transducer Side Stick<BR>><BR>> Thank you, Marv and Erwin. You
guys have so many information on hands.<BR>><BR>> "While the transducer I
am using has no movement, there will be a special<BR>> coupler between the
grip and the transducer that will allow for a slight bit<BR>> of movement,
just like the real thing."<BR>><BR>> I'm thinking about that, too.
The combination of transducer and some kind<BR>> of hard spring or rubber
ring to allow movement. But the life of a the<BR>> rubber may not as
long as we expect...then we have to think about spare part<BR>> again.
I'm wondering if there is a possibility for ordering very small<BR>> quantity
(less than 500 sets) of those small parts that you can't<BR>> manufactured
them by yourself (spring, bush, rubber, etc.)<BR>><BR>> During the
weekend, I read a Cougar manual and found that we can set X-axis<BR>> and
Y-axis to get a little movement, also get more sensitivity if wanted.<BR>> To
prove it, I brought the baby out from the box and get it connected ...<BR>>
man, it's so much easier than setting the F-22+TQS that have been used
for<BR>> years. When activate the Cougar Hotas Software and set the
movement of X<BR>> and Y axis to minimum (100% at the side bar for both upper
and lower<BR>> side)... then having the sensitivity of both axis set to 32
(maximum<BR>> position, then the shape of the graph becomes 'S' curve instead
of '/'<BR>> shape).<BR>><BR>><BR>> I tested it in the Falcon 4.0
flight, and found very interesting result, I<BR>> can reduce the movement the
stick from ~60 degrees (30 to the left, 30 to<BR>> the right, and the same
for pull and push) to something less than 30 degrees<BR>> (15 degree on each
side). By setting the sensitivity to the maximum value,<BR>> the stick
responded very fast, I could perform a hard turn or full rolls<BR>> just when
move the stick to approx. 5 degrees out from the center. Next, I<BR>>
set the sensitivity to zero, and found that it has to be a full 15
degrees<BR>> from the center to get a full roll or hard turn.<BR>><BR>>
Sorry that I cannot remember the specific names of each values, but they
all<BR>> show in the Cougar Control panel... and you Cougar owners should
know what I<BR>> meant. My question is that 'Is it good enough compare
to the real thing by<BR>> setting the Cougar this way?' and 'How can we
eliminate the large gimbals or<BR>> make a modify kit with low cost to fit in
a replica stick base?'<BR>><BR>> Marv, please also try your Cougar (when
arrive, of course) if the result is<BR>> appropriate.... Albert raised this
cool idea when we had beer in Sydney.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> Sukit
Sittisudjatum<BR>><BR>> www.thaiflight.com <<A target=_blank
href="http://www.thaiflight.com">http://www.thaiflight.com</A>><BR>><BR>>
Bangkok, Thailand<BR>><BR>><BR>> ----Original Message-----<BR>>
From: Marv De Beque [ <<A
href="mailto:mdebeque@woh.rr.com">mailto:mdebeque@woh.rr.com</A>><BR>> <A
href="mailto:mdebeque@woh.rr.com">mailto:mdebeque@woh.rr.com</A>]<BR>> Sent:
Tuesday, October 15, 2002 5:14 PM<BR>> To: simpits-tech@simpits.org<BR>>
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Re: F-16 Force Transducer Side Stick<BR>><BR>>
The transducer is fully compatible with either the EPIC or the PC game
port<BR>> with a signal of 0 to 5 volt.<BR>> Yes, my understanding is that
the force required is +/- 25 lbs. for front to<BR>> back and +/- 10 lbs. for
side to side.<BR>> I want to make mine user adjustable from those numbers
just cited down to<BR>> something much lower. I don't know what the lower
limit will be just yet.<BR>> Should have that dialed out in a week or
two.<BR>> Sukit,<BR>> I am not sure about the actual amount of stick
movement on the real<BR>> assembly. The earliest ones had none. Later, they
added some play to give<BR>> about 1/32", but it was different for some
directions. I have heard rumor<BR>> that they have relaxed the amount of
movement even more to perhaps 1/4".<BR>> Mine will have something between the
two numbers I quoted above. I have not<BR>> decided on the exact amount, but
I think 1/8" is a good compromise.<BR>> While the transducer I am using has
no movement, there will be a special<BR>> coupler between the grip and the
transducer that will allow for a slight bit<BR>> of movement, just like the
real thing.<BR>> Just like the my gauges, I am trying for a faithful
replication of the F-16<BR>> side stick, right down to all of the shiny
screws and various labels.<BR>> I am looking into making the rubber boot that
the modern Block 50 uses<BR>> between the grip and the base. That will add
the final touch. ;-)<BR>> Marv<BR>> --<BR>><BR>>> From: "Sukit,
Sittisudjatum" <SukitS@state.gov><BR>>> Reply-To:
simpits-tech@simpits.org<BR>>> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 03:37:27
-0400<BR>>> To: "'simpits-tech@simpits.org'"
<simpits-tech@simpits.org><BR>>> Subject: [simpits-tech] Re: F-16
Force Transducer Side Stick<BR>>><BR>>>
Marv,<BR>>><BR>>> I remembered that someone (you?) gave the
information about 25Ibs for pull<BR>>> and push, 19Ibs (or 10 Ibis) for
side to side.... and the stick can be<BR>> moved<BR>>> about dia 0.25"
on the top. Correct me if I'm wrong.<BR>>><BR>>> I'm wondering if
you're going to make a true replica, or a zero movement<BR>>> stick? Cause
the strain gauge gives us no movement... Also, do we need to<BR>>> have
EPIC card to convert the signal from your mod kit? Just
curious.<BR>>><BR>>> Sukit Sittisudjatum<BR>>>
www.thaiflight.com < <<A target=_blank
href="http://www.thaiflight.com">http://www.thaiflight.com</A>><BR>> <A
target=_blank
href="http://www.thaiflight.com">http://www.thaiflight.com</A>><BR>>><BR>>>
Bangkok, Thailand<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>><BR>>
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