[simpits-tech] Switchs, Rotary and pot
Frank Riedel
simpits-tech@simpits.org
Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:39:33 +0200
ohh, whats COTS ??
:o)
Frank
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marv De Beque" <mdebeque@woh.rr.com>
To: <simpits-tech@simpits.org>
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Switchs, Rotary and pot
> Frank,
>
> If memory serves, you can get one input expansion module for all of the
> switches.
>
> For the annunciator lights, I think there are at least 72 active
> annuciators. Each output expansion module will handle 32.
>
> Since output modules cost about $100 each, you will need a total of three
> output module boards. Gets pricey.
>
> There are also several alphanumeric displays that need to be addressed.
One
> is the chaff-flare controls. The other two are the DED and its derivative
> on the right AUX panel. The problem with these two is not driving them,
but
> there is not a COTS solution for these displays themself.
>
>
> --
>
>
> > From: "Frank Riedel" <frank@rezultat.dk>
> > Reply-To: simpits-tech@simpits.org
> > Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:07:17 +0200
> > To: <simpits-tech@simpits.org>
> > Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Switchs, Rotary and pot
> >
> > Hi All !
> >
> > Can anybody tell me what module to buy to the EPIC
> > so all of F16 button, lamps, rotary etc,. will be funcktional ?????
> >
> > All the best
> > Frank
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mark Doran" <msdoran@attbi.com>
> > To: <simpits-tech@simpits.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:20 AM
> > Subject: RE: [simpits-tech] Switchs, Rotary and pot
> >
> >
> >> I've been thinking about this some lately too as I plow through the
epic
> >> (sic) task of EPL programming for a complete set of F-16 panels. Left
> >> side console and half the center console all done now, but I digress.
> >>
> >> Encoders seem to get used (from a human factors-ish sort of view) where
> >> you have knobs that turn without an end stop and where the knob fitted
> >> doesn't need to line up with any particular markings on the panel that
> >> it's mounted on. Losing any one click 'cos you go by too fast isn't a
> >> problem because you can always click on one more time in the same
> >> direction to adjust...same for overshooting if you were really going
> >> fast just go back a click or two...
> >>
> >> For encoders, there's no real problem in syncing a physical mark on the
> >> knob, like a stripe say, with an orientation versus the panel the knob
> >> is on. But if you need to sync in orientation or you need end stops on
> >> travel of the knob in either direction, well then you definitely want a
> >> rotary switch, not an encoder.
> >>
> >> FWIW, I wonder about using pots in places where the real jet has
> >> encoders (like HSI heading and course controls for example). How do
you
> >> get around the fact that a pot has an end stop?? Ralph's default
> >> keystroke to analog axis mapping technique gives you only 32 steps in
> >> both up and down directions...not enough resolution steps if you are
> >> doing compass headings, say. Yes, you can hand code something to read
> >> the pots absolute value to get more resolution in each of the 32
"slots"
> >> but that's a lot of code, I think you are still limited to ~256 steps
of
> >> resolution, and you still don't really have the right "feel" equivalent
> >> given that an encoder just doesn't bump into an end stop.
> >>
> >> Plus of course, there are already near enough more things that need
> >> analog axes than you have to play with in the first place with a single
> >> EPIC: 2 for stick, 5 for TQS, 1 for rudder, 1 for HUD brightness, 2 for
> >> radio volumes, 2 for threat and sidewinder volume...that's 13 out of 16
> >> possible max right there just for the controls I actually use a lot
when
> >> flying. You certainly won't be using pots to replace all the rotary
> >> knobs anyway ;-) [Mmm, presuming you use EPIC for flight control axes
> >> that is.]
> >>
> >> Back to encoders though...
> >>
> >> Electrically after all the complex circuitry is boiled down what you
get
> >> is on of two switch make pulses that mean either "clockwise" (CW) one
or
> >> "counter clockwise" (CCW) one. A bit over simplified perhaps but
> >> looking at this as a programmer that's what I see.
> >>
> >> Now, I can't see why if you have a rotary mechanical switch that has no
> >> end stop CW or CCW why you can't do a "software encoder" in EPL and
save
> >> lots of painful circuitry and wiring...not to mention cash.
> >>
> >> How about this:
> >>
> >> A three pole rotary switch with no end stops. Wire each pole for a
> >> separate EPIC mod/row/bit number for this example with bits in
> >> "increasing" order clockwise:
> >>
> >> --BEGIN EPL EXCERPT
> >>
> >> // I haven't actually compiled and tried this but it's similar to the
> >> code I
> >> // have put together for positional rotary knobs that is working.
> >> // this uses the newer "device" and function call syntax but
translating
> >> // back to EPICenter pre-v47 should also work well enough for this.
> >>
> >> byte vLastPos = 0;
> >>
> >> device(dFakeEncoder)
> >> {
> >> connector(FirstExpansionModule);
> >> button(0, 0, bBit0);
> >> button(0, 1, bBit1);
> >> button(0, 2, bBit2);
> >> };
> >>
> >> void dFakeEncoder.bBit0.On(void)
> >> {
> >> if(vLastPos == 2) {
> >> call(pulse_cw_keystroke);
> >> } else if (vLastPos == 1) {
> >> call(pulse_ccw_keystroke);
> >> } // else we're confused so don't send key presses :-)
> >> vLastPos = 0;
> >> }
> >>
> >> void dFakeEncoder.bBit1.On(void)
> >> {
> >> if(vLastPos == 0) {
> >> call(pulse_cw_keystroke);
> >> } else if (vLastPos == 2) {
> >> call(pulse_ccw_keystroke);
> >> } // else we're confused so don't send key presses :-)
> >> vLastPos = 1;
> >> }
> >>
> >> void dFakeEncoder.bBit2.On(void)
> >> {
> >> if(vLastPos == 1) {
> >> call(pulse_cw_keystroke);
> >> } else if (vLastPos == 0) {
> >> call(pulse_ccw_keystroke);
> >> } // else we're confused so don't send key presses :-)
> >> vLastPos = 2;
> >> }
> >>
> >> --END EPL EXCERPT
> >>
> >> Ok, so the switch has only three positions but if you put a round knob
> >> on it with no markings, who's to know?? It'll feel like an encoder
> >> (ish). In my testing with EPL code for rotary knobs that do have
> >> positional line up requirements, EPL execution is plenty fast enough to
> >> keep up with you even if you spin the knob pretty fast as you would
with
> >> an actual encoder.
> >>
> >> The EPIC encoder module is quite spendy. If this works it might save a
> >> little that way. Of course we may end up using some encoders in our
> >> project since Falcon4 uses so many switches now the hardware may be on
a
> >> "switch count diet" to fit onto a single EPIC and encoders do seem to
> >> use 1/3 less EPIC MRB namespace up when coding :-)
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Mark.
> >>
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: simpits-tech-admin@simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-
> >>> admin@simpits.org] On Behalf Of Marv De Beque
> >>> Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 3:32 PM
> >>> To: simpits-tech@simpits.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Switchs, Rotary and pot
> >>>
> >>> That is an open question.
> >>>
> >>> The answer is, it depends.
> >>>
> >>> However, you have not qualified the exact application, so it is hard
> >> to
> >>> give
> >>> you a good answer.
> >>>
> >>> However, since I am constructing a F-16 cockpit, I can tell you what I
> >>> plan
> >>> to use. I will use a potentiometer for almost all of my applications
> >>> where
> >>> there is a knob. Except....
> >>>
> >>> ... the caveat is there are many knobs that use a rotary switch and I
> >> will
> >>> use a rotary switch where it is required. I think you know what a
> >> rotary
> >>> switch is, but if not, it is a mechanical switch that rotates to
> >> preset
> >>> positions.
> >>>
> >>> There are not too many places where an encoder will be applicable in
> >> my
> >>> sim.
> >>> I may possibly use them for the ICP panel that sticks in the pilots
> >> face.
> >>> There are 4 thumb wheels that control contrast, brightness, and other
> >>> functions on the HUD. An encoder may be physically easier to mount
> >> than a
> >>> pot in those instances.
> >>>
> >>> Encoders require more expensive circuitry to operate than a pot.
> >> General
> >>> rule of thumb is that there should be a good reason for using an
> >> encoder
> >>> where normally a pot will not do.
> >>>
> >>> I would recommend a pot.
> >>>
> >>> That being said, from the scope of the questions you are asking, I
> >> wonder
> >>> where you are at in your project and what your project goals are? I
> >> ask
> >>> because I get a sense that you might be putting the cart before the
> >> horse.
> >>>
> >>> What is your goal and what is your plan to get there?
> >>>
> >>> I am sure that you can get all the help you need right here, but it is
> >>> good
> >>> to get the basics first, outline your goals, and then we can help you
> >>> execute your plan (or at least help you get a plan together).
> >>>
> >>> Marv
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: "Frank Riedel" <frank@rezultat.dk>
> >>>> Reply-To: simpits-tech@simpits.org
> >>>> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 00:09:33 +0200
> >>>> To: <simpits-tech@simpits.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Switchs, Rotary and pot
> >>>>
> >>>> Great exampels ;o)
> >>>> GOT IT ;o)
> >>>> BUT - can i use POT instead of ENCODERS in my pit ???
> >>>>
> >>>> Frank
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Marv De Beque" <mdebeque@woh.rr.com>
> >>>> To: <simpits-tech@simpits.org>
> >>>> Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 11:57 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Switchs, Rotary and pot
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> No.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A pot (short for potentiometer) is a device that rotates over a
> >> given
> >>>>> portion of a circle. This is usually about 270 degrees, but there
> >> are
> >>>>> multi-turn pots that rotate 5, 10, or 20 turns from lock to lock.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A pot is nothing more than a resistor that can be changed from zero
> >>>>> (usually) to its maximum value. 100,000 Ohms is typical for
> >> simulator
> >>>> use.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A pot, theoretically, has an infinite adjustment between its two
> >>> extreme
> >>>>> values (i.e., 0 to 100,000 Ohms). So, like a faucet (in good
> >> working
> >>>>> order), you can adjust the flow to any value in between.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A rotary encoder is different. It is a device that rotates like a
> >> pot,
> >>>> but
> >>>>> instead of acting like a variable resistor, it sends out a set of
> >>> pulses
> >>>> as
> >>>>> the knob turns. It is sort of like putting playing cards on the
> >> forks
> >>> of
> >>>> a
> >>>>> bicycle and turning the wheel. As each spoke passes, an audible
> >> click
> >>> is
> >>>>> heard (a pulse). You can count the pulses and then determine how
> >> far
> >>> the
> >>>>> wheel has rotated. You need two two playing cards slightly offset
> >> in
> >>> an
> >>>>> angular fashion to tell which direction the wheel is rotating. By
> >>> looking
> >>>>> at which card clicks first you can tell direction of spin.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The thing about encoders is that they have a "granularity". Unlike
> >> a
> >>> pot
> >>>>> which is infinite, there are finite steps to an encoder. There may
> >> be
> >>> any
> >>>>> number of steps you can get from a few to several hundred steps per
> >>>>> revolution. You can resolve the rotation only down to the step,
> >> but
> >>> you
> >>>> can
> >>>>> not tell how much an encoder rotates between step steps (i.e., a
> >> half
> >>>> step).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Most encoders do not remember their positions when power to the
> >> system
> >>> is
> >>>>> turned off. So, the system must somehow save the last known
> >> position
> >>> if
> >>>> it
> >>>>> is to pick up where it left off at power down. A pot has the same
> >>>>> resistance whether the system has power or not.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A pot almost always has a mechanical stop. Resistance can only go
> >> so
> >>> far.
> >>>>> An encoder does not necessarily have a mechanical stop and can be
> >>> rotated
> >>>>> continuously without stopping.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> An example of an encoder is a computer mouse (at least the old
> >> ones).
> >>>> Some
> >>>>> new car stereos have them too.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Two different animals that can be used in similar ways and each has
> >> its
> >>>>> advantages.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry for the long message, but I am short on time.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Marv
> >>>>> --
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> From: "Frank Riedel" <frank@rezultat.dk>
> >>>>>> Reply-To: simpits-tech@simpits.org
> >>>>>> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 23:35:45 +0200
> >>>>>> To: <simpits-tech@simpits.org>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Switchs, Rotary and pot
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks alot for the explanation ;o)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I found the F16 panels at simpits.org...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Did i get it right - rotary encoders = potentiometers ??
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>> Frank !
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Andreas Fransson" <andreas.fransson@post.utfors.se>
> >>>>>> To: <simpits-tech@simpits.org>
> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 9:09 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Switchs, Rotary and pot
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Frank,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 3-way switches are (usually) on-off-on. With or without automatic
> >>>> return
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> center position (not sure what the english expression for this
> >> would
> >>>> be).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Rotaries, if you mean rotary switches and not rotary encoders,
> >> may or
> >>>> may
> >>>>>>> not have limits. A couple I have here for example do not. They go
> >> all
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>> way around. What they do is just rotate a common ground around a
> >>> number
> >>>> of
> >>>>>>> connections. Like a "normal" switch but with many more positions.
> >>> Mine
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>>>> 12 I think. You could say that they are "all-on" in the sense
> >> that
> >>> one
> >>>>>> lead
> >>>>>>> is always active. Encoders are a different breed altogether. They
> >> are
> >>>>>>> commonly used to sense motion (rotation) rather than indicate
> >> switch
> >>>>>>> positions.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Pots", or potentiometers, are basically variable resistors. I
> >> you
> >>> use
> >>>> one
> >>>>>>> with EPIC, or as a replacement for a joystick pot, it is 100 ohm
> >>> linear
> >>>>>> pots
> >>>>>>> you want.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If you use the EPIC, the kind of switches you use are almost
> >>>> unimportant.
> >>>>>>> EPL (the EPIC programming language) is very flexible. It's not at
> >> all
> >>>> like
> >>>>>>> the standard joystick momentary on/off pushbuttons.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What aircraft (or whatever) panels are you looking for?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Andreas
> >>>>>>> http://valhallainc.d2g.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> From: "Frank Riedel" <frank@rezultat.dk>
> >>>>>>>> Hi All !
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 3 way switchs - is that off-on-off or ????
> >>>>>>>> Rotary - is that 360 dg. or ???
> >>>>>>>> 2 way switchs - is that on-on or ???
> >>>>>>>> Pot - is that a normal potmeter 100 ohm or ???
> >>>>>>>> Is EPIC control all those switchs nomatter if it is on-of or
> >> on-on
> >>> ???
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Do anyone of you guys have a link to a page where i can read
> >> about
> >>> it
> >>>>>> ???
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> and do anyone have a set of drawings of panels without knobs on
> >> ????
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> thanks for all your help... i'm on the road for my first real
> >> pit
> >>> ;o)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Frank
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Simpits-tech mailing list
> >>>>>>> Simpits-tech@simpits.org
> >>>>>>> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the
> >>> above
> >>>>>> page. Thanks!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >> above
> >>>> page.
> >>>>>> Thanks!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>
> >>>>
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