From dabigboy at cox.net  Tue Feb 12 10:21:44 2013
From: dabigboy at cox.net (dabigboy at cox.net)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 10:21:44 -0800
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
Message-ID: <20130212182144.9C77R.245900.root@eastrmwml105>

Got it working:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek6B8TXsjFc

Sure is neat to fly with. :)

Matt

From Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com  Tue Feb 12 12:52:29 2013
From: Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com (Sean Galbraith)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 09:52:29 +1300
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <20130212182144.9C77R.245900.root@eastrmwml105>
References: <20130212182144.9C77R.245900.root@eastrmwml105>
Message-ID: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE916FF@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>

Now *THAT* is cool :)

SeanG

-----Original Message-----
From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org
[mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of dabigboy at cox.net
Sent: Wednesday, 13 February 2013 7:22 a.m.
To: simpits-tech at simpits.org
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator

Got it working:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek6B8TXsjFc

Sure is neat to fly with. :)

Matt
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From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Feb 12 13:11:09 2013
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 13:11:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE916FF@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
References: <20130212182144.9C77R.245900.root@eastrmwml105>
	<2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE916FF@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302121310560.19898@deltasoft.com>

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Sean Galbraith wrote:

> Now *THAT* is cool :)
>

Agreed!

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

From phoenixcomm at gmail.com  Tue Feb 12 13:12:18 2013
From: phoenixcomm at gmail.com (Cris Harrison)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 15:12:18 -0600
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <20130212182144.9C77R.245900.root@eastrmwml105>
References: <20130212182144.9C77R.245900.root@eastrmwml105>
Message-ID: <CAAqDk_6-sTm5HAe856qQtmZJcmfCh6g8sei0gXWu_E3VoFWszg@mail.gmail.com>

Congrats!! looks grate... how did you do it..

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 12:21 PM,  <dabigboy at cox.net> wrote:
> Got it working:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek6B8TXsjFc
>
> Sure is neat to fly with. :)
>
> Matt
> _______________________________________________
> Simpits-tech mailing list
> Simpits-tech at simpits.org
> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
> To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page.  Thanks!



--

From dabigboy at cox.net  Tue Feb 12 19:57:05 2013
From: dabigboy at cox.net (dabigboy at cox.net)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 19:57:05 -0800
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <CAAqDk_6-sTm5HAe856qQtmZJcmfCh6g8sei0gXWu_E3VoFWszg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130213035705.0CW1U.252481.imail@eastrmwml108>

Thanks! I used my sound card. :)

I will be adding an Arduino later to manually override the needle for localizer mode, however.

Matt

---- Cris Harrison <phoenixcomm at gmail.com> wrote: 
> Congrats!! looks grate... how did you do it..
> 
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 12:21 PM,  <dabigboy at cox.net> wrote:
> > Got it working:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek6B8TXsjFc
> >
> > Sure is neat to fly with. :)
> >
> > Matt
> > _______________________________________________
> > Simpits-tech mailing list
> > Simpits-tech at simpits.org
> > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
> > To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page.  Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> --
> _______________________________________________
> Simpits-tech mailing list
> Simpits-tech at simpits.org
> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
> To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page.  Thanks!


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Wed Feb 13 05:55:18 2013
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 05:55:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <20130213035705.0CW1U.252481.imail@eastrmwml108>
References: <20130213035705.0CW1U.252481.imail@eastrmwml108>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302130554570.1786@deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 12 Feb 2013, dabigboy at cox.net wrote:

> Thanks! I used my sound card. :)
>
Ok, that all by itself requires a lengthy explanation. :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

From dabigboy at cox.net  Wed Feb 13 08:53:56 2013
From: dabigboy at cox.net (dabigboy at cox.net)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 8:53:56 -0800
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302130554570.1786@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <20130213165356.9HW72.261908.imail@eastrmwml207>


---- geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote: 
> On Tue, 12 Feb 2013, dabigboy at cox.net wrote:
> 
> > Thanks! I used my sound card. :)
> >
> Ok, that all by itself requires a lengthy explanation. :)
> 
> g.

LOL! OK, here's more or less what happened:

So I had been wanting to get my hands on a real VOR indicator for a while, with the basic plan that I could gut it and use the electrical bits to read OBS setting, and use PWM pins on the Arduino to drive the needle (since, as I understood it, the needle was just a simple D'Arsonval meter). I eventually purchased this KI-201C on ebay for like $30 shipped, mostly just to see what I could do with it. When I got to looking at the instrument and the documentation for it (found on the 'net), I realized that the signal driving the gauge only required three pins, and two of them were actually *output* for an autopilot connection....so only one pin was used for signal input. Intrigued, I started hitting the internet for more info........

Having sat through ground school years ago, I knew that the signal coming from a VOR station was "two different signals that vary based on your orientation to the station"....and that was about as far as a typical ground school instructor would go. It turns out, the composite VOR signal is pretty interesting. Each ground station puts out an omni-directional signal which is composed of a 30hz sine wave, plus the Morse stuff on a different frequency. The "rotating antenna" (actually a circular array of antennae on the ground that is electronically "rotated") puts out another 30hz signal, but is composed of a 9960hz carrier signal. The phasing of the two signals determines what radial you are on, and the 9960hz signal helps keep them "separated", so to speak.The 9960hz signal also allows the signal to be differentiated, if the two 30hz tones are 180* out of phase, for instance (otherwise there would be no difference between the 0* radial and 180*).

The complex thing is that the 9960hz carrier signal is frequency-modulated at 30hz, and where the 9960hz signal is at depends on where the 30hz signal is at in its phase. This is the hardest part.......I was getting the right idea, but wasn't sure exactly how to make it work. One thing I knew, that 9960hz was well within the ability of a computer's sound card to produce, so I *should* be able to actually generate this signal myself.

Then I come across a post on a message board from 2006 where some folks were discussing VOR signals. One poster was a ham radio operator and mentioned that he had actually written a program that generates all the signals for a VOR gauge. I emailed him and, thankfully, his address was still active. He generously sent me his entire program, source code and all! Unfortunately it was written as a Visual Studio project, and there was so much Microsoft fluff involved, I wasn't sure exactly how to read the code and apply it to my Python/Linux work. So, I fired up my barely-used copy of VS 2010, migrated his project, made some tweaks to get it to run (his program was from 2001, so it was written in an old version of VS), and actually got it to output the tones for each radial.

I then used Audacity to record each radial, 0*-359*, and saved them as WAVs. After that, I wrote software that calculates the current radial from X-Plane, then plays the appropriate WAV file.

The really tricky thing is that the calibration is funky....depending on what radial I'm at, the error is anywhere from no error at all, to around 30*. So, I had to write a calibration table to send the correct WAV to the sound card. I'm not sure if this is a problem with the instrument, weirdness with my sound card (the phasing is actually messed up by the soundcard, but it's supposed to be a constant error that you can allow for in software), or something funky caused by playing pre-recorded WAVs instead of generating the tone in real time. I've got it pretty well working within 4 degrees accuracy or so, but there are a few radials that are off by more than 20* still..........I think it's a problem with my radial-calculating code (the X-Plane SDK does not seem to have a dataref for current VOR radial, I have to subtract relative bearing to the VOR from current heading, then apply corrections to keep the resulting value within 0-360). But it is working, which is the main thing. I don't think the calibration errors will be hard to fix.

If I wrote my software to generate the 30hz tone and the 9960hz modulated at 30hz, I'm pretty sure I could fill in the gaps of my knowledge through experimentation and study of the other guy's code.....but what I'm doing now with the WAVs appears to work just fine, so I will probably leave it.

Now, the astute observer might note that the signal coming from a real VOR station is actually an AMPLITUDE-modulated signal between 108mhz and 119.95mhz, and you would be correct! That's the carrier signal to broadcast to your plane. The NAV receiver in the plane de-modulates that AM signal to yield the "clean" VOR composite signal, which is what goes to the indicator. Theoretically, if I designed a device that takes my current signal and amplitude-modulates it at the above frequencies (basically, half of an AM radio transmitter), I could run the signal right into the antenna input of a real NAV radio and actually be able to use all the tuning and functionality of the real radio! This is overkill for me though, I already have nice Gables control heads doing my nav/com stuff (plus good NAV radios are over $1,000 a piece.........)

So what is all this magic inside the VOR indicator itself? It is simply a phase-shifter, and the VOR needle indicates how far out of phase the two signals are....turn the OBS knob until the shifted signals are in phase, and the needle will be centered.

Matt

From phoenixcomm at gmail.com  Wed Feb 13 14:20:10 2013
From: phoenixcomm at gmail.com (Cris Harrison)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:20:10 -0600
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <20130213165356.9HW72.261908.imail@eastrmwml207>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302130554570.1786@deltasoft.com>
	<20130213165356.9HW72.261908.imail@eastrmwml207>
Message-ID: <CAAqDk_4z1xZXBrc3TJKGCB7ExByj5cQvTS_kYY+=Qb1Qg7=6Fg@mail.gmail.com>

Matt
could you please email the vb program...
I will rewirte into C;
Thks
Cris H.


On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 10:53 AM,  <dabigboy at cox.net> wrote:
>
> ---- geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Feb 2013, dabigboy at cox.net wrote:
>>
>> > Thanks! I used my sound card. :)
>> >
>> Ok, that all by itself requires a lengthy explanation. :)
>>
>> g.
>
> LOL! OK, here's more or less what happened:
>
> So I had been wanting to get my hands on a real VOR indicator for a while, with the basic plan that I could gut it and use the electrical bits to read OBS setting, and use PWM pins on the Arduino to drive the needle (since, as I understood it, the needle was just a simple D'Arsonval meter). I eventually purchased this KI-201C on ebay for like $30 shipped, mostly just to see what I could do with it. When I got to looking at the instrument and the documentation for it (found on the 'net), I realized that the signal driving the gauge only required three pins, and two of them were actually *output* for an autopilot connection....so only one pin was used for signal input. Intrigued, I started hitting the internet for more info........
>
> Having sat through ground school years ago, I knew that the signal coming from a VOR station was "two different signals that vary based on your orientation to the station"....and that was about as far as a typical ground school instructor would go. It turns out, the composite VOR signal is pretty interesting. Each ground station puts out an omni-directional signal which is composed of a 30hz sine wave, plus the Morse stuff on a different frequency. The "rotating antenna" (actually a circular array of antennae on the ground that is electronically "rotated") puts out another 30hz signal, but is composed of a 9960hz carrier signal. The phasing of the two signals determines what radial you are on, and the 9960hz signal helps keep them "separated", so to speak.The 9960hz signal also allows the signal to be differentiated, if the two 30hz tones are 180* out of phase, for instance (otherwise there would be no difference between the 0* radial and 180*).
>
> The complex thing is that the 9960hz carrier signal is frequency-modulated at 30hz, and where the 9960hz signal is at depends on where the 30hz signal is at in its phase. This is the hardest part.......I was getting the right idea, but wasn't sure exactly how to make it work. One thing I knew, that 9960hz was well within the ability of a computer's sound card to produce, so I *should* be able to actually generate this signal myself.
>
> Then I come across a post on a message board from 2006 where some folks were discussing VOR signals. One poster was a ham radio operator and mentioned that he had actually written a program that generates all the signals for a VOR gauge. I emailed him and, thankfully, his address was still active. He generously sent me his entire program, source code and all! Unfortunately it was written as a Visual Studio project, and there was so much Microsoft fluff involved, I wasn't sure exactly how to read the code and apply it to my Python/Linux work. So, I fired up my barely-used copy of VS 2010, migrated his project, made some tweaks to get it to run (his program was from 2001, so it was written in an old version of VS), and actually got it to output the tones for each radial.
>
> I then used Audacity to record each radial, 0*-359*, and saved them as WAVs. After that, I wrote software that calculates the current radial from X-Plane, then plays the appropriate WAV file.
>
> The really tricky thing is that the calibration is funky....depending on what radial I'm at, the error is anywhere from no error at all, to around 30*. So, I had to write a calibration table to send the correct WAV to the sound card. I'm not sure if this is a problem with the instrument, weirdness with my sound card (the phasing is actually messed up by the soundcard, but it's supposed to be a constant error that you can allow for in software), or something funky caused by playing pre-recorded WAVs instead of generating the tone in real time. I've got it pretty well working within 4 degrees accuracy or so, but there are a few radials that are off by more than 20* still..........I think it's a problem with my radial-calculating code (the X-Plane SDK does not seem to have a dataref for current VOR radial, I have to subtract relative bearing to the VOR from current heading, then apply corrections to keep the resulting value within 0-360). But it is working, which is the main thi
>  ng. I don't think the calibration errors will be hard to fix.
>
> If I wrote my software to generate the 30hz tone and the 9960hz modulated at 30hz, I'm pretty sure I could fill in the gaps of my knowledge through experimentation and study of the other guy's code.....but what I'm doing now with the WAVs appears to work just fine, so I will probably leave it.
>
> Now, the astute observer might note that the signal coming from a real VOR station is actually an AMPLITUDE-modulated signal between 108mhz and 119.95mhz, and you would be correct! That's the carrier signal to broadcast to your plane. The NAV receiver in the plane de-modulates that AM signal to yield the "clean" VOR composite signal, which is what goes to the indicator. Theoretically, if I designed a device that takes my current signal and amplitude-modulates it at the above frequencies (basically, half of an AM radio transmitter), I could run the signal right into the antenna input of a real NAV radio and actually be able to use all the tuning and functionality of the real radio! This is overkill for me though, I already have nice Gables control heads doing my nav/com stuff (plus good NAV radios are over $1,000 a piece.........)
>
> So what is all this magic inside the VOR indicator itself? It is simply a phase-shifter, and the VOR needle indicates how far out of phase the two signals are....turn the OBS knob until the shifted signals are in phase, and the needle will be centered.
>
> Matt
> _______________________________________________
> Simpits-tech mailing list
> Simpits-tech at simpits.org
> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
> To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page.  Thanks!



--

From rene at ejection.nl  Wed Feb 13 14:51:51 2013
From: rene at ejection.nl (Rene Koopman)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 23:51:51 +0100
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <20130213165356.9HW72.261908.imail@eastrmwml207>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302130554570.1786@deltasoft.com>
	<20130213165356.9HW72.261908.imail@eastrmwml207>
Message-ID: <7F8018B36336694D81D4C60C9DD1E2C503FE6315C6CA@exchange.ejection.local>

Nice Matt,

Must have taken some hours study ;)

Biggles.

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] Namens dabigboy at cox.net
Verzonden: woensdag 13 februari 2013 17:54
Aan: Simulator Cockpit Builder's List
Onderwerp: Re: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator


---- geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote: 
> On Tue, 12 Feb 2013, dabigboy at cox.net wrote:
> 
> > Thanks! I used my sound card. :)
> >
> Ok, that all by itself requires a lengthy explanation. :)
> 
> g.

LOL! OK, here's more or less what happened:

So I had been wanting to get my hands on a real VOR indicator for a while, with the basic plan that I could gut it and use the electrical bits to read OBS setting, and use PWM pins on the Arduino to drive the needle (since, as I understood it, the needle was just a simple D'Arsonval meter). I eventually purchased this KI-201C on ebay for like $30 shipped, mostly just to see what I could do with it. When I got to looking at the instrument and the documentation for it (found on the 'net), I realized that the signal driving the gauge only required three pins, and two of them were actually *output* for an autopilot connection....so only one pin was used for signal input. Intrigued, I started hitting the internet for more info........

Having sat through ground school years ago, I knew that the signal coming from a VOR station was "two different signals that vary based on your orientation to the station"....and that was about as far as a typical ground school instructor would go. It turns out, the composite VOR signal is pretty interesting. Each ground station puts out an omni-directional signal which is composed of a 30hz sine wave, plus the Morse stuff on a different frequency. The "rotating antenna" (actually a circular array of antennae on the ground that is electronically "rotated") puts out another 30hz signal, but is composed of a 9960hz carrier signal. The phasing of the two signals determines what radial you are on, and the 9960hz signal helps keep them "separated", so to speak.The 9960hz signal also allows the signal to be differentiated, if the two 30hz tones are 180* out of phase, for instance (otherwise there would be no difference between the 0* radial and 180*).

The complex thing is that the 9960hz carrier signal is frequency-modulated at 30hz, and where the 9960hz signal is at depends on where the 30hz signal is at in its phase. This is the hardest part.......I was getting the right idea, but wasn't sure exactly how to make it work. One thing I knew, that 9960hz was well within the ability of a computer's sound card to produce, so I *should* be able to actually generate this signal myself.

Then I come across a post on a message board from 2006 where some folks were discussing VOR signals. One poster was a ham radio operator and mentioned that he had actually written a program that generates all the signals for a VOR gauge. I emailed him and, thankfully, his address was still active. He generously sent me his entire program, source code and all! Unfortunately it was written as a Visual Studio project, and there was so much Microsoft fluff involved, I wasn't sure exactly how to read the code and apply it to my Python/Linux work. So, I fired up my barely-used copy of VS 2010, migrated his project, made some tweaks to get it to run (his program was from 2001, so it was written in an old version of VS), and actually got it to output the tones for each radial.

I then used Audacity to record each radial, 0*-359*, and saved them as WAVs. After that, I wrote software that calculates the current radial from X-Plane, then plays the appropriate WAV file.

The really tricky thing is that the calibration is funky....depending on what radial I'm at, the error is anywhere from no error at all, to around 30*. So, I had to write a calibration table to send the correct WAV to the sound card. I'm not sure if this is a problem with the instrument, weirdness with my sound card (the phasing is actually messed up by the soundcard, but it's supposed to be a constant error that you can allow for in software), or something funky caused by playing pre-recorded WAVs instead of generating the tone in real time. I've got it pretty well working within 4 degrees accuracy or so, but there are a few radials that are off by more than 20* still..........I think it's a problem with my radial-calculating code (the X-Plane SDK does not seem to have a dataref for current VOR radial, I have to subtract relative bearing to the VOR from current heading, then apply corrections to keep the resulting value within 0-360). But it is working, which is the main thi  ng. I don't think the calibration errors will be hard to fix.

If I wrote my software to generate the 30hz tone and the 9960hz modulated at 30hz, I'm pretty sure I could fill in the gaps of my knowledge through experimentation and study of the other guy's code.....but what I'm doing now with the WAVs appears to work just fine, so I will probably leave it.

Now, the astute observer might note that the signal coming from a real VOR station is actually an AMPLITUDE-modulated signal between 108mhz and 119.95mhz, and you would be correct! That's the carrier signal to broadcast to your plane. The NAV receiver in the plane de-modulates that AM signal to yield the "clean" VOR composite signal, which is what goes to the indicator. Theoretically, if I designed a device that takes my current signal and amplitude-modulates it at the above frequencies (basically, half of an AM radio transmitter), I could run the signal right into the antenna input of a real NAV radio and actually be able to use all the tuning and functionality of the real radio! This is overkill for me though, I already have nice Gables control heads doing my nav/com stuff (plus good NAV radios are over $1,000 a piece.........)

So what is all this magic inside the VOR indicator itself? It is simply a phase-shifter, and the VOR needle indicates how far out of phase the two signals are....turn the OBS knob until the shifted signals are in phase, and the needle will be centered.

Matt
_______________________________________________
Simpits-tech mailing list
Simpits-tech at simpits.org
http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page.  Thanks!

From raysot at comcast.net  Wed Feb 13 15:39:24 2013
From: raysot at comcast.net (raysot at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 23:39:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <CAAqDk_4z1xZXBrc3TJKGCB7ExByj5cQvTS_kYY+=Qb1Qg7=6Fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1385322779.1033814.1360798764024.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

I wonder if it's possible to generate those frequencies with an Aurduino, or some sort of D/A Signal converter driven by Arduino. 


Regardless, this was a great read. Thanks for sharing. 




----- Original Message -----
From: "Cris Harrison" <phoenixcomm at gmail.com> 
To: "Simulator Cockpit Builder's List" <simpits-tech at simpits.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:20:10 PM 
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator 

Matt 
could you please email the vb program... 
I will rewirte into C; 
Thks 
Cris H. 


On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 10:53 AM, <dabigboy at cox.net> wrote: 
> 
> ---- geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote: 
>> On Tue, 12 Feb 2013, dabigboy at cox.net wrote: 
>> 
>> > Thanks! I used my sound card. :) 
>> > 
>> Ok, that all by itself requires a lengthy explanation. :) 
>> 
>> g. 
> 
> LOL! OK, here's more or less what happened: 
> 
> So I had been wanting to get my hands on a real VOR indicator for a while, with the basic plan that I could gut it and use the electrical bits to read OBS setting, and use PWM pins on the Arduino to drive the needle (since, as I understood it, the needle was just a simple D'Arsonval meter). I eventually purchased this KI-201C on ebay for like $30 shipped, mostly just to see what I could do with it. When I got to looking at the instrument and the documentation for it (found on the 'net), I realized that the signal driving the gauge only required three pins, and two of them were actually *output* for an autopilot connection....so only one pin was used for signal input. Intrigued, I started hitting the internet for more info........ 
> 
> Having sat through ground school years ago, I knew that the signal coming from a VOR station was "two different signals that vary based on your orientation to the station"....and that was about as far as a typical ground school instructor would go. It turns out, the composite VOR signal is pretty interesting. Each ground station puts out an omni-directional signal which is composed of a 30hz sine wave, plus the Morse stuff on a different frequency. The "rotating antenna" (actually a circular array of antennae on the ground that is electronically "rotated") puts out another 30hz signal, but is composed of a 9960hz carrier signal. The phasing of the two signals determines what radial you are on, and the 9960hz signal helps keep them "separated", so to speak.The 9960hz signal also allows the signal to be differentiated, if the two 30hz tones are 180* out of phase, for instance (otherwise there would be no difference between the 0* radial and 180*). 
> 
> The complex thing is that the 9960hz carrier signal is frequency-modulated at 30hz, and where the 9960hz signal is at depends on where the 30hz signal is at in its phase. This is the hardest part.......I was getting the right idea, but wasn't sure exactly how to make it work. One thing I knew, that 9960hz was well within the ability of a computer's sound card to produce, so I *should* be able to actually generate this signal myself. 
> 
> Then I come across a post on a message board from 2006 where some folks were discussing VOR signals. One poster was a ham radio operator and mentioned that he had actually written a program that generates all the signals for a VOR gauge. I emailed him and, thankfully, his address was still active. He generously sent me his entire program, source code and all! Unfortunately it was written as a Visual Studio project, and there was so much Microsoft fluff involved, I wasn't sure exactly how to read the code and apply it to my Python/Linux work. So, I fired up my barely-used copy of VS 2010, migrated his project, made some tweaks to get it to run (his program was from 2001, so it was written in an old version of VS), and actually got it to output the tones for each radial. 
> 
> I then used Audacity to record each radial, 0*-359*, and saved them as WAVs. After that, I wrote software that calculates the current radial from X-Plane, then plays the appropriate WAV file. 
> 
> The really tricky thing is that the calibration is funky....depending on what radial I'm at, the error is anywhere from no error at all, to around 30*. So, I had to write a calibration table to send the correct WAV to the sound card. I'm not sure if this is a problem with the instrument, weirdness with my sound card (the phasing is actually messed up by the soundcard, but it's supposed to be a constant error that you can allow for in software), or something funky caused by playing pre-recorded WAVs instead of generating the tone in real time. I've got it pretty well working within 4 degrees accuracy or so, but there are a few radials that are off by more than 20* still..........I think it's a problem with my radial-calculating code (the X-Plane SDK does not seem to have a dataref for current VOR radial, I have to subtract relative bearing to the VOR from current heading, then apply corrections to keep the resulting value within 0-360). But it is working, which is the main t 
hi 
> ng. I don't think the calibration errors will be hard to fix. 
> 
> If I wrote my software to generate the 30hz tone and the 9960hz modulated at 30hz, I'm pretty sure I could fill in the gaps of my knowledge through experimentation and study of the other guy's code.....but what I'm doing now with the WAVs appears to work just fine, so I will probably leave it. 
> 
> Now, the astute observer might note that the signal coming from a real VOR station is actually an AMPLITUDE-modulated signal between 108mhz and 119.95mhz, and you would be correct! That's the carrier signal to broadcast to your plane. The NAV receiver in the plane de-modulates that AM signal to yield the "clean" VOR composite signal, which is what goes to the indicator. Theoretically, if I designed a device that takes my current signal and amplitude-modulates it at the above frequencies (basically, half of an AM radio transmitter), I could run the signal right into the antenna input of a real NAV radio and actually be able to use all the tuning and functionality of the real radio! This is overkill for me though, I already have nice Gables control heads doing my nav/com stuff (plus good NAV radios are over $1,000 a piece.........) 
> 
> So what is all this magic inside the VOR indicator itself? It is simply a phase-shifter, and the VOR needle indicates how far out of phase the two signals are....turn the OBS knob until the shifted signals are in phase, and the needle will be centered. 
> 
> Matt 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Simpits-tech mailing list 
> Simpits-tech at simpits.org 
> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech 
> To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! 



-- 
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From Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com  Wed Feb 13 16:45:17 2013
From: Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com (Sean Galbraith)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 13:45:17 +1300
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <7F8018B36336694D81D4C60C9DD1E2C503FE6315C6CA@exchange.ejection.local>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302130554570.1786@deltasoft.com>
	<20130213165356.9HW72.261908.imail@eastrmwml207>
	<7F8018B36336694D81D4C60C9DD1E2C503FE6315C6CA@exchange.ejection.local>
Message-ID: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE91724@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>

That was a great read.... but I am now pretty sure that Matt knows more
about VOR signals than is actually healthy ;-)

Fantastic work, and it is now quite obvious that I need to do a
sim-seeing tour over your side of the pond sooner rather than later!

SeanG

-----Original Message-----
From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org
[mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Rene Koopman
Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2013 11:52 a.m.
To: Simulator Cockpit Builder's List
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator

Nice Matt,

Must have taken some hours study ;)

Biggles.

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org
[mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] Namens dabigboy at cox.net
Verzonden: woensdag 13 februari 2013 17:54
Aan: Simulator Cockpit Builder's List
Onderwerp: Re: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator


---- geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote: 
> On Tue, 12 Feb 2013, dabigboy at cox.net wrote:
> 
> > Thanks! I used my sound card. :)
> >
> Ok, that all by itself requires a lengthy explanation. :)
> 
> g.

LOL! OK, here's more or less what happened:

So I had been wanting to get my hands on a real VOR indicator for a
while, with the basic plan that I could gut it and use the electrical
bits to read OBS setting, and use PWM pins on the Arduino to drive the
needle (since, as I understood it, the needle was just a simple
D'Arsonval meter). I eventually purchased this KI-201C on ebay for like
$30 shipped, mostly just to see what I could do with it. When I got to
looking at the instrument and the documentation for it (found on the
'net), I realized that the signal driving the gauge only required three
pins, and two of them were actually *output* for an autopilot
connection....so only one pin was used for signal input. Intrigued, I
started hitting the internet for more info........

Having sat through ground school years ago, I knew that the signal
coming from a VOR station was "two different signals that vary based on
your orientation to the station"....and that was about as far as a
typical ground school instructor would go. It turns out, the composite
VOR signal is pretty interesting. Each ground station puts out an
omni-directional signal which is composed of a 30hz sine wave, plus the
Morse stuff on a different frequency. The "rotating antenna" (actually a
circular array of antennae on the ground that is electronically
"rotated") puts out another 30hz signal, but is composed of a 9960hz
carrier signal. The phasing of the two signals determines what radial
you are on, and the 9960hz signal helps keep them "separated", so to
speak.The 9960hz signal also allows the signal to be differentiated, if
the two 30hz tones are 180* out of phase, for instance (otherwise there
would be no difference between the 0* radial and 180*).

The complex thing is that the 9960hz carrier signal is
frequency-modulated at 30hz, and where the 9960hz signal is at depends
on where the 30hz signal is at in its phase. This is the hardest
part.......I was getting the right idea, but wasn't sure exactly how to
make it work. One thing I knew, that 9960hz was well within the ability
of a computer's sound card to produce, so I *should* be able to actually
generate this signal myself.

Then I come across a post on a message board from 2006 where some folks
were discussing VOR signals. One poster was a ham radio operator and
mentioned that he had actually written a program that generates all the
signals for a VOR gauge. I emailed him and, thankfully, his address was
still active. He generously sent me his entire program, source code and
all! Unfortunately it was written as a Visual Studio project, and there
was so much Microsoft fluff involved, I wasn't sure exactly how to read
the code and apply it to my Python/Linux work. So, I fired up my
barely-used copy of VS 2010, migrated his project, made some tweaks to
get it to run (his program was from 2001, so it was written in an old
version of VS), and actually got it to output the tones for each radial.

I then used Audacity to record each radial, 0*-359*, and saved them as
WAVs. After that, I wrote software that calculates the current radial
from X-Plane, then plays the appropriate WAV file.

The really tricky thing is that the calibration is funky....depending on
what radial I'm at, the error is anywhere from no error at all, to
around 30*. So, I had to write a calibration table to send the correct
WAV to the sound card. I'm not sure if this is a problem with the
instrument, weirdness with my sound card (the phasing is actually messed
up by the soundcard, but it's supposed to be a constant error that you
can allow for in software), or something funky caused by playing
pre-recorded WAVs instead of generating the tone in real time. I've got
it pretty well working within 4 degrees accuracy or so, but there are a
few radials that are off by more than 20* still..........I think it's a
problem with my radial-calculating code (the X-Plane SDK does not seem
to have a dataref for current VOR radial, I have to subtract relative
bearing to the VOR from current heading, then apply corrections to keep
the resulting value within 0-360). But it is working, which is the main
thi
   ng. I don't think the calibration errors will be hard to fix.

If I wrote my software to generate the 30hz tone and the 9960hz
modulated at 30hz, I'm pretty sure I could fill in the gaps of my
knowledge through experimentation and study of the other guy's
code.....but what I'm doing now with the WAVs appears to work just fine,
so I will probably leave it.

Now, the astute observer might note that the signal coming from a real
VOR station is actually an AMPLITUDE-modulated signal between 108mhz and
119.95mhz, and you would be correct! That's the carrier signal to
broadcast to your plane. The NAV receiver in the plane de-modulates that
AM signal to yield the "clean" VOR composite signal, which is what goes
to the indicator. Theoretically, if I designed a device that takes my
current signal and amplitude-modulates it at the above frequencies
(basically, half of an AM radio transmitter), I could run the signal
right into the antenna input of a real NAV radio and actually be able to
use all the tuning and functionality of the real radio! This is overkill
for me though, I already have nice Gables control heads doing my nav/com
stuff (plus good NAV radios are over $1,000 a piece.........)

So what is all this magic inside the VOR indicator itself? It is simply
a phase-shifter, and the VOR needle indicates how far out of phase the
two signals are....turn the OBS knob until the shifted signals are in
phase, and the needle will be centered.

Matt
_______________________________________________
Simpits-tech mailing list
Simpits-tech at simpits.org
http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above
page.  Thanks!
_______________________________________________
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Simpits-tech at simpits.org
http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above
page.  Thanks!

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6100 - Release Date:
02/12/13

From dabigboy at cox.net  Wed Feb 13 18:42:31 2013
From: dabigboy at cox.net (dabigboy at cox.net)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:42:31 -0800
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <CAAqDk_4z1xZXBrc3TJKGCB7ExByj5cQvTS_kYY+=Qb1Qg7=6Fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20130214024231.31TCR.265747.imail@eastrmwml302>

Actually it's already in C, but it's written in Visual Studio and has a lot of funky VS/Windows dependencies (like the entire sound architecture). But if you still want it, I'll email the author and make sure it's OK (I'm sure it's fine, I just don't have explicit permission to pass it around).

Matt

---- Cris Harrison <phoenixcomm at gmail.com> wrote: 
> Matt
> could you please email the vb program...
> I will rewirte into C;
> Thks
> Cris H.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 10:53 AM,  <dabigboy at cox.net> wrote:
> >
> > ---- geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 12 Feb 2013, dabigboy at cox.net wrote:
> >>
> >> > Thanks! I used my sound card. :)
> >> >
> >> Ok, that all by itself requires a lengthy explanation. :)
> >>
> >> g.
> >
> > LOL! OK, here's more or less what happened:
> >
> > So I had been wanting to get my hands on a real VOR indicator for a while, with the basic plan that I could gut it and use the electrical bits to read OBS setting, and use PWM pins on the Arduino to drive the needle (since, as I understood it, the needle was just a simple D'Arsonval meter). I eventually purchased this KI-201C on ebay for like $30 shipped, mostly just to see what I could do with it. When I got to looking at the instrument and the documentation for it (found on the 'net), I realized that the signal driving the gauge only required three pins, and two of them were actually *output* for an autopilot connection....so only one pin was used for signal input. Intrigued, I started hitting the internet for more info........
> >
> > Having sat through ground school years ago, I knew that the signal coming from a VOR station was "two different signals that vary based on your orientation to the station"....and that was about as far as a typical ground school instructor would go. It turns out, the composite VOR signal is pretty interesting. Each ground station puts out an omni-directional signal which is composed of a 30hz sine wave, plus the Morse stuff on a different frequency. The "rotating antenna" (actually a circular array of antennae on the ground that is electronically "rotated") puts out another 30hz signal, but is composed of a 9960hz carrier signal. The phasing of the two signals determines what radial you are on, and the 9960hz signal helps keep them "separated", so to speak.The 9960hz signal also allows the signal to be differentiated, if the two 30hz tones are 180* out of phase, for instance (otherwise there would be no difference between the 0* radial and 180*).
> >
> > The complex thing is that the 9960hz carrier signal is frequency-modulated at 30hz, and where the 9960hz signal is at depends on where the 30hz signal is at in its phase. This is the hardest part.......I was getting the right idea, but wasn't sure exactly how to make it work. One thing I knew, that 9960hz was well within the ability of a computer's sound card to produce, so I *should* be able to actually generate this signal myself.
> >
> > Then I come across a post on a message board from 2006 where some folks were discussing VOR signals. One poster was a ham radio operator and mentioned that he had actually written a program that generates all the signals for a VOR gauge. I emailed him and, thankfully, his address was still active. He generously sent me his entire program, source code and all! Unfortunately it was written as a Visual Studio project, and there was so much Microsoft fluff involved, I wasn't sure exactly how to read the code and apply it to my Python/Linux work. So, I fired up my barely-used copy of VS 2010, migrated his project, made some tweaks to get it to run (his program was from 2001, so it was written in an old version of VS), and actually got it to output the tones for each radial.
> >
> > I then used Audacity to record each radial, 0*-359*, and saved them as WAVs. After that, I wrote software that calculates the current radial from X-Plane, then plays the appropriate WAV file.
> >
> > The really tricky thing is that the calibration is funky....depending on what radial I'm at, the error is anywhere from no error at all, to around 30*. So, I had to write a calibration table to send the correct WAV to the sound card. I'm not sure if this is a problem with the instrument, weirdness with my sound card (the phasing is actually messed up by the soundcard, but it's supposed to be a constant error that you can allow for in software), or something funky caused by playing pre-recorded WAVs instead of generating the tone in real time. I've got it pretty well working within 4 degrees accuracy or so, but there are a few radials that are off by more than 20* still..........I think it's a problem with my radial-calculating code (the X-Plane SDK does not seem to have a dataref for current VOR radial, I have to subtract relative bearing to the VOR from current heading, then apply corrections to keep the resulting value within 0-360). But it is working, which is the main t
>  hi
> >  ng. I don't think the calibration errors will be hard to fix.
> >
> > If I wrote my software to generate the 30hz tone and the 9960hz modulated at 30hz, I'm pretty sure I could fill in the gaps of my knowledge through experimentation and study of the other guy's code.....but what I'm doing now with the WAVs appears to work just fine, so I will probably leave it.
> >
> > Now, the astute observer might note that the signal coming from a real VOR station is actually an AMPLITUDE-modulated signal between 108mhz and 119.95mhz, and you would be correct! That's the carrier signal to broadcast to your plane. The NAV receiver in the plane de-modulates that AM signal to yield the "clean" VOR composite signal, which is what goes to the indicator. Theoretically, if I designed a device that takes my current signal and amplitude-modulates it at the above frequencies (basically, half of an AM radio transmitter), I could run the signal right into the antenna input of a real NAV radio and actually be able to use all the tuning and functionality of the real radio! This is overkill for me though, I already have nice Gables control heads doing my nav/com stuff (plus good NAV radios are over $1,000 a piece.........)
> >
> > So what is all this magic inside the VOR indicator itself? It is simply a phase-shifter, and the VOR needle indicates how far out of phase the two signals are....turn the OBS knob until the shifted signals are in phase, and the needle will be centered.
> >
> > Matt
> > _______________________________________________
> > Simpits-tech mailing list
> > Simpits-tech at simpits.org
> > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
> > To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page.  Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> --
> _______________________________________________
> Simpits-tech mailing list
> Simpits-tech at simpits.org
> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
> To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page.  Thanks!


From dabigboy at cox.net  Wed Feb 13 18:52:09 2013
From: dabigboy at cox.net (dabigboy at cox.net)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:52:09 -0800
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <1385322779.1033814.1360798764024.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20130214025209.8UWX9.265895.imail@eastrmwml302>

Perhaps. There is an audio generator card for the Arduino, but it would probably not offer any huge advantage over a PC soundcard.

I have like 8 soundcards between all my sim PCs, so it' not a big deal. :)

Matt

---- raysot at comcast.net wrote: 
> I wonder if it's possible to generate those frequencies with an Aurduino, or some sort of D/A Signal converter driven by Arduino. 
> 
> 
> Regardless, this was a great read. Thanks for sharing. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cris Harrison" <phoenixcomm at gmail.com> 
> To: "Simulator Cockpit Builder's List" <simpits-tech at simpits.org> 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:20:10 PM 
> Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator 
> 
> Matt 
> could you please email the vb program... 
> I will rewirte into C; 
> Thks 
> Cris H. 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 10:53 AM, <dabigboy at cox.net> wrote: 
> > 
> > ---- geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote: 
> >> On Tue, 12 Feb 2013, dabigboy at cox.net wrote: 
> >> 
> >> > Thanks! I used my sound card. :) 
> >> > 
> >> Ok, that all by itself requires a lengthy explanation. :) 
> >> 
> >> g. 
> > 
> > LOL! OK, here's more or less what happened: 
> > 
> > So I had been wanting to get my hands on a real VOR indicator for a while, with the basic plan that I could gut it and use the electrical bits to read OBS setting, and use PWM pins on the Arduino to drive the needle (since, as I understood it, the needle was just a simple D'Arsonval meter). I eventually purchased this KI-201C on ebay for like $30 shipped, mostly just to see what I could do with it. When I got to looking at the instrument and the documentation for it (found on the 'net), I realized that the signal driving the gauge only required three pins, and two of them were actually *output* for an autopilot connection....so only one pin was used for signal input. Intrigued, I started hitting the internet for more info........ 
> > 
> > Having sat through ground school years ago, I knew that the signal coming from a VOR station was "two different signals that vary based on your orientation to the station"....and that was about as far as a typical ground school instructor would go. It turns out, the composite VOR signal is pretty interesting. Each ground station puts out an omni-directional signal which is composed of a 30hz sine wave, plus the Morse stuff on a different frequency. The "rotating antenna" (actually a circular array of antennae on the ground that is electronically "rotated") puts out another 30hz signal, but is composed of a 9960hz carrier signal. The phasing of the two signals determines what radial you are on, and the 9960hz signal helps keep them "separated", so to speak.The 9960hz signal also allows the signal to be differentiated, if the two 30hz tones are 180* out of phase, for instance (otherwise there would be no difference between the 0* radial and 180*). 
> > 
> > The complex thing is that the 9960hz carrier signal is frequency-modulated at 30hz, and where the 9960hz signal is at depends on where the 30hz signal is at in its phase. This is the hardest part.......I was getting the right idea, but wasn't sure exactly how to make it work. One thing I knew, that 9960hz was well within the ability of a computer's sound card to produce, so I *should* be able to actually generate this signal myself. 
> > 
> > Then I come across a post on a message board from 2006 where some folks were discussing VOR signals. One poster was a ham radio operator and mentioned that he had actually written a program that generates all the signals for a VOR gauge. I emailed him and, thankfully, his address was still active. He generously sent me his entire program, source code and all! Unfortunately it was written as a Visual Studio project, and there was so much Microsoft fluff involved, I wasn't sure exactly how to read the code and apply it to my Python/Linux work. So, I fired up my barely-used copy of VS 2010, migrated his project, made some tweaks to get it to run (his program was from 2001, so it was written in an old version of VS), and actually got it to output the tones for each radial. 
> > 
> > I then used Audacity to record each radial, 0*-359*, and saved them as WAVs. After that, I wrote software that calculates the current radial from X-Plane, then plays the appropriate WAV file. 
> > 
> > The really tricky thing is that the calibration is funky....depending on what radial I'm at, the error is anywhere from no error at all, to around 30*. So, I had to write a calibration table to send the correct WAV to the sound card. I'm not sure if this is a problem with the instrument, weirdness with my sound card (the phasing is actually messed up by the soundcard, but it's supposed to be a constant error that you can allow for in software), or something funky caused by playing pre-recorded WAVs instead of generating the tone in real time. I've got it pretty well working within 4 degrees accuracy or so, but there are a few radials that are off by more than 20* still..........I think it's a problem with my radial-calculating code (the X-Plane SDK does not seem to have a dataref for current VOR radial, I have to subtract relative bearing to the VOR from current heading, then apply corrections to keep the resulting value within 0-360). But it is working, which is the main t
>   
> hi 
> > ng. I don't think the calibration errors will be hard to fix. 
> > 
> > If I wrote my software to generate the 30hz tone and the 9960hz modulated at 30hz, I'm pretty sure I could fill in the gaps of my knowledge through experimentation and study of the other guy's code.....but what I'm doing now with the WAVs appears to work just fine, so I will probably leave it. 
> > 
> > Now, the astute observer might note that the signal coming from a real VOR station is actually an AMPLITUDE-modulated signal between 108mhz and 119.95mhz, and you would be correct! That's the carrier signal to broadcast to your plane. The NAV receiver in the plane de-modulates that AM signal to yield the "clean" VOR composite signal, which is what goes to the indicator. Theoretically, if I designed a device that takes my current signal and amplitude-modulates it at the above frequencies (basically, half of an AM radio transmitter), I could run the signal right into the antenna input of a real NAV radio and actually be able to use all the tuning and functionality of the real radio! This is overkill for me though, I already have nice Gables control heads doing my nav/com stuff (plus good NAV radios are over $1,000 a piece.........) 
> > 
> > So what is all this magic inside the VOR indicator itself? It is simply a phase-shifter, and the VOR needle indicates how far out of phase the two signals are....turn the OBS knob until the shifted signals are in phase, and the needle will be centered. 
> > 
> > Matt 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > Simpits-tech mailing list 
> > Simpits-tech at simpits.org 
> > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech 
> > To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Simpits-tech mailing list 
> Simpits-tech at simpits.org 
> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech 
> To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! 


From phoenixcomm at gmail.com  Wed Feb 13 19:16:55 2013
From: phoenixcomm at gmail.com (Cris Harrison)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:16:55 -0600
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <20130214024231.31TCR.265747.imail@eastrmwml302>
References: <CAAqDk_4z1xZXBrc3TJKGCB7ExByj5cQvTS_kYY+=Qb1Qg7=6Fg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20130214024231.31TCR.265747.imail@eastrmwml302>
Message-ID: <CAAqDk_6DAK5MiFv2kOsK+qxp_s9rMfWbDM7RSyDu9=reHnxRSw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 8:42 PM,  <dabigboy at cox.net> wrote:
> Actually it's already in C, but it's written in Visual Studio and has a lot of funky VS/Windows dependencies (like the entire sound architecture). But if you still want it, I'll email the author and make sure it's OK (I'm sure it's fine, I just don't have explicit permission to pass it around).
>
> Matt
>
Thanks Matt that would be cool...
I think it run on a Stellaris 80Mhz 32 bit ARM Cortex M4F
(F=FlotingPoint) Launchpad from TI with no problem..

> ---- Cris Harrison <phoenixcomm at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Matt
>> could you please email the vb program...
>> I will rewirte into C;
>> Thks
>> Cris H.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 10:53 AM,  <dabigboy at cox.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > ---- geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 12 Feb 2013, dabigboy at cox.net wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Thanks! I used my sound card. :)
>> >> >
>> >> Ok, that all by itself requires a lengthy explanation. :)
>> >>
>> >> g.
>> >
>> > LOL! OK, here's more or less what happened:
>> >
>> > So I had been wanting to get my hands on a real VOR indicator for a while, with the basic plan that I could gut it and use the electrical bits to read OBS setting, and use PWM pins on the Arduino to drive the needle (since, as I understood it, the needle was just a simple D'Arsonval meter). I eventually purchased this KI-201C on ebay for like $30 shipped, mostly just to see what I could do with it. When I got to looking at the instrument and the documentation for it (found on the 'net), I realized that the signal driving the gauge only required three pins, and two of them were actually *output* for an autopilot connection....so only one pin was used for signal input. Intrigued, I started hitting the internet for more info........
>> >
>> > Having sat through ground school years ago, I knew that the signal coming from a VOR station was "two different signals that vary based on your orientation to the station"....and that was about as far as a typical ground school instructor would go. It turns out, the composite VOR signal is pretty interesting. Each ground station puts out an omni-directional signal which is composed of a 30hz sine wave, plus the Morse stuff on a different frequency. The "rotating antenna" (actually a circular array of antennae on the ground that is electronically "rotated") puts out another 30hz signal, but is composed of a 9960hz carrier signal. The phasing of the two signals determines what radial you are on, and the 9960hz signal helps keep them "separated", so to speak.The 9960hz signal also allows the signal to be differentiated, if the two 30hz tones are 180* out of phase, for instance (otherwise there would be no difference between the 0* radial and 180*).
>> >
>> > The complex thing is that the 9960hz carrier signal is frequency-modulated at 30hz, and where the 9960hz signal is at depends on where the 30hz signal is at in its phase. This is the hardest part.......I was getting the right idea, but wasn't sure exactly how to make it work. One thing I knew, that 9960hz was well within the ability of a computer's sound card to produce, so I *should* be able to actually generate this signal myself.
>> >
>> > Then I come across a post on a message board from 2006 where some folks were discussing VOR signals. One poster was a ham radio operator and mentioned that he had actually written a program that generates all the signals for a VOR gauge. I emailed him and, thankfully, his address was still active. He generously sent me his entire program, source code and all! Unfortunately it was written as a Visual Studio project, and there was so much Microsoft fluff involved, I wasn't sure exactly how to read the code and apply it to my Python/Linux work. So, I fired up my barely-used copy of VS 2010, migrated his project, made some tweaks to get it to run (his program was from 2001, so it was written in an old version of VS), and actually got it to output the tones for each radial.
>> >
>> > I then used Audacity to record each radial, 0*-359*, and saved them as WAVs. After that, I wrote software that calculates the current radial from X-Plane, then plays the appropriate WAV file.
>> >
>> > The really tricky thing is that the calibration is funky....depending on what radial I'm at, the error is anywhere from no error at all, to around 30*. So, I had to write a calibration table to send the correct WAV to the sound card. I'm not sure if this is a problem with the instrument, weirdness with my sound card (the phasing is actually messed up by the soundcard, but it's supposed to be a constant error that you can allow for in software), or something funky caused by playing pre-recorded WAVs instead of generating the tone in real time. I've got it pretty well working within 4 degrees accuracy or so, but there are a few radials that are off by more than 20* still..........I think it's a problem with my radial-calculating code (the X-Plane SDK does not seem to have a dataref for current VOR radial, I have to subtract relative bearing to the VOR from current heading, then apply corrections to keep the resulting value within 0-360). But it is working, which is the main
>   t
>>  hi
>> >  ng. I don't think the calibration errors will be hard to fix.
>> >
>> > If I wrote my software to generate the 30hz tone and the 9960hz modulated at 30hz, I'm pretty sure I could fill in the gaps of my knowledge through experimentation and study of the other guy's code.....but what I'm doing now with the WAVs appears to work just fine, so I will probably leave it.
>> >
>> > Now, the astute observer might note that the signal coming from a real VOR station is actually an AMPLITUDE-modulated signal between 108mhz and 119.95mhz, and you would be correct! That's the carrier signal to broadcast to your plane. The NAV receiver in the plane de-modulates that AM signal to yield the "clean" VOR composite signal, which is what goes to the indicator. Theoretically, if I designed a device that takes my current signal and amplitude-modulates it at the above frequencies (basically, half of an AM radio transmitter), I could run the signal right into the antenna input of a real NAV radio and actually be able to use all the tuning and functionality of the real radio! This is overkill for me though, I already have nice Gables control heads doing my nav/com stuff (plus good NAV radios are over $1,000 a piece.........)
>> >and it will be 0 if allso not used.
>> > So what is all this magic inside the VOR indicator itself? It is simply a phase-shifter, and the VOR needle indicates how far out of phase the two signals are....turn the OBS knob until the shifted signals are in phase, and the needle will be centered.
>> >
>> > Matt
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Simpits-tech mailing list
>> > Simpits-tech at simpits.org
>> > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
>> > To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page.  Thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> _______________________________________________
>> Simpits-tech mailing list
>> Simpits-tech at simpits.org
>> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
>> To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page.  Thanks!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Simpits-tech mailing list
> Simpits-tech at simpits.org
> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
> To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page.  Thanks!

From dabigboy at cox.net  Wed Feb 13 20:05:38 2013
From: dabigboy at cox.net (dabigboy at cox.net)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 20:05:38 -0800
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE91724@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
Message-ID: <20130214040538.KA88U.265629.imail@eastrmwml107>

Definitely! Actually I just had a "sim party" a couple weeks ago with a few of the guys from Wichita. Great fun! I never thought I would know so many people who are into this crazy hobby just as badly as I am. :P You should come to CockpitFest USA if you're ever over in this direction. September was the first one here, and it was a blast. This year they're having it in conjunction with Avsim's "FanCon 2013", so we are going to have tons of vendors, guests, and exhibits. And at least 3 or 4 sims will be flying online with PilotEdge.

I'm still trying to get my hands on a Learjet cockpit....got a couple of leads working right now.

Matt

---- Sean Galbraith <Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com> wrote: 
> That was a great read.... but I am now pretty sure that Matt knows more
> about VOR signals than is actually healthy ;-)
> 
> Fantastic work, and it is now quite obvious that I need to do a
> sim-seeing tour over your side of the pond sooner rather than later!
> 
> SeanG
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org
> [mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Rene Koopman
> Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2013 11:52 a.m.
> To: Simulator Cockpit Builder's List
> Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
> 
> Nice Matt,
> 
> Must have taken some hours study ;)
> 
> Biggles.
> 
> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org
> [mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] Namens dabigboy at cox.net
> Verzonden: woensdag 13 februari 2013 17:54
> Aan: Simulator Cockpit Builder's List
> Onderwerp: Re: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
> 
> 
> ---- geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote: 
> > On Tue, 12 Feb 2013, dabigboy at cox.net wrote:
> > 
> > > Thanks! I used my sound card. :)
> > >
> > Ok, that all by itself requires a lengthy explanation. :)
> > 
> > g.
> 
> LOL! OK, here's more or less what happened:
> 
> So I had been wanting to get my hands on a real VOR indicator for a
> while, with the basic plan that I could gut it and use the electrical
> bits to read OBS setting, and use PWM pins on the Arduino to drive the
> needle (since, as I understood it, the needle was just a simple
> D'Arsonval meter). I eventually purchased this KI-201C on ebay for like
> $30 shipped, mostly just to see what I could do with it. When I got to
> looking at the instrument and the documentation for it (found on the
> 'net), I realized that the signal driving the gauge only required three
> pins, and two of them were actually *output* for an autopilot
> connection....so only one pin was used for signal input. Intrigued, I
> started hitting the internet for more info........
> 
> Having sat through ground school years ago, I knew that the signal
> coming from a VOR station was "two different signals that vary based on
> your orientation to the station"....and that was about as far as a
> typical ground school instructor would go. It turns out, the composite
> VOR signal is pretty interesting. Each ground station puts out an
> omni-directional signal which is composed of a 30hz sine wave, plus the
> Morse stuff on a different frequency. The "rotating antenna" (actually a
> circular array of antennae on the ground that is electronically
> "rotated") puts out another 30hz signal, but is composed of a 9960hz
> carrier signal. The phasing of the two signals determines what radial
> you are on, and the 9960hz signal helps keep them "separated", so to
> speak.The 9960hz signal also allows the signal to be differentiated, if
> the two 30hz tones are 180* out of phase, for instance (otherwise there
> would be no difference between the 0* radial and 180*).
> 
> The complex thing is that the 9960hz carrier signal is
> frequency-modulated at 30hz, and where the 9960hz signal is at depends
> on where the 30hz signal is at in its phase. This is the hardest
> part.......I was getting the right idea, but wasn't sure exactly how to
> make it work. One thing I knew, that 9960hz was well within the ability
> of a computer's sound card to produce, so I *should* be able to actually
> generate this signal myself.
> 
> Then I come across a post on a message board from 2006 where some folks
> were discussing VOR signals. One poster was a ham radio operator and
> mentioned that he had actually written a program that generates all the
> signals for a VOR gauge. I emailed him and, thankfully, his address was
> still active. He generously sent me his entire program, source code and
> all! Unfortunately it was written as a Visual Studio project, and there
> was so much Microsoft fluff involved, I wasn't sure exactly how to read
> the code and apply it to my Python/Linux work. So, I fired up my
> barely-used copy of VS 2010, migrated his project, made some tweaks to
> get it to run (his program was from 2001, so it was written in an old
> version of VS), and actually got it to output the tones for each radial.
> 
> I then used Audacity to record each radial, 0*-359*, and saved them as
> WAVs. After that, I wrote software that calculates the current radial
> from X-Plane, then plays the appropriate WAV file.
> 
> The really tricky thing is that the calibration is funky....depending on
> what radial I'm at, the error is anywhere from no error at all, to
> around 30*. So, I had to write a calibration table to send the correct
> WAV to the sound card. I'm not sure if this is a problem with the
> instrument, weirdness with my sound card (the phasing is actually messed
> up by the soundcard, but it's supposed to be a constant error that you
> can allow for in software), or something funky caused by playing
> pre-recorded WAVs instead of generating the tone in real time. I've got
> it pretty well working within 4 degrees accuracy or so, but there are a
> few radials that are off by more than 20* still..........I think it's a
> problem with my radial-calculating code (the X-Plane SDK does not seem
> to have a dataref for current VOR radial, I have to subtract relative
> bearing to the VOR from current heading, then apply corrections to keep
> the resulting value within 0-360). But it is working, which is the main
> thi
>    ng. I don't think the calibration errors will be hard to fix.
> 
> If I wrote my software to generate the 30hz tone and the 9960hz
> modulated at 30hz, I'm pretty sure I could fill in the gaps of my
> knowledge through experimentation and study of the other guy's
> code.....but what I'm doing now with the WAVs appears to work just fine,
> so I will probably leave it.
> 
> Now, the astute observer might note that the signal coming from a real
> VOR station is actually an AMPLITUDE-modulated signal between 108mhz and
> 119.95mhz, and you would be correct! That's the carrier signal to
> broadcast to your plane. The NAV receiver in the plane de-modulates that
> AM signal to yield the "clean" VOR composite signal, which is what goes
> to the indicator. Theoretically, if I designed a device that takes my
> current signal and amplitude-modulates it at the above frequencies
> (basically, half of an AM radio transmitter), I could run the signal
> right into the antenna input of a real NAV radio and actually be able to
> use all the tuning and functionality of the real radio! This is overkill
> for me though, I already have nice Gables control heads doing my nav/com
> stuff (plus good NAV radios are over $1,000 a piece.........)
> 
> So what is all this magic inside the VOR indicator itself? It is simply
> a phase-shifter, and the VOR needle indicates how far out of phase the
> two signals are....turn the OBS knob until the shifted signals are in
> phase, and the needle will be centered.
> 
> Matt
> _______________________________________________
> Simpits-tech mailing list
> Simpits-tech at simpits.org
> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
> To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above
> page.  Thanks!
> _______________________________________________
> Simpits-tech mailing list
> Simpits-tech at simpits.org
> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
> To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above
> page.  Thanks!
> 
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6100 - Release Date:
> 02/12/13
> _______________________________________________
> Simpits-tech mailing list
> Simpits-tech at simpits.org
> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
> To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page.  Thanks!


From jjmessenger at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 20:08:50 2013
From: jjmessenger at yahoo.com (Justin Messenger)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 20:08:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <mailman.160.1360811817.2531.simpits-tech@simpits.org>
References: <mailman.160.1360811817.2531.simpits-tech@simpits.org>
Message-ID: <1360814930.83925.YahooMailNeo@web140201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

>That was a great read.... but I am now pretty sure that Matt knows more
>about VOR signals than is actually healthy ;-)
>
>Fantastic work, and it is now quite obvious that I need to do a
>sim-seeing tour over your side of the pond sooner rather than later!
>
>SeanG
?
?Sean,
You should come for Cockpit-Fest this May 3rd, 4th, and 5th! Matt's?will not only be there showing off his sim and nifty VOR indicator, his sim will be networked to my F-4 sim and a 737 sim via Pilot Edge ATC.? Matt and I have been working on interfacing?transponders to make it all?possible. He's also looking at installing an X-planes F-111 flight model so he can cruise with?my F-4. We have?general aviation?headsets in all the sims so?that makes for nice communications between the sims.

In case any of you missed the details, Cockpit-Fest USA 2013 is being sponsored by Spirit AreoSystems who manufactures the entire 737 fuselage and also the Dreamliner cockpits for Boeing. In addition to?the special ?737 exhibit being displayed inside?the museum's 737,?Spirit is?considering bringing a brand new 737 fuselage from the factory to place on display. 

AVSIM is also holding their Fancon in conjunction with Cockpit-Fest and we already have software vendors signed up to attend from as far away as Poland. We are having to add major internet capacity to the museum facility to meet all of the vendor internet demand. VATSIM is going to have a 15 person team provide ATC from 10 computers set up in the Fuselage of?the museum's?KC-135 tanker.

The Viperpits guys will be back and some will be judges this year.

No matter if you bring a cockpit or just come to visit, its going to be a great event. 

Info and registration is available at 
http://www.kansasaviationmuseum.org/cockpitfest.php

AND

http://forum.avsim.net/page/FANCON%202013/index.html

General Public Activities:? Open 10AM ? 5PM Saturday and Sunday.
? The Spirit AeroSystems 737 exhibit, celebrating over 10,000 aircraft ordered.
? The AVSIM Fancon, with simulation software vendors from around the world.
? Multiple aircraft simulators available to the public for flight.
? The new Boeing Kids Aerospace Education and Simulator Center.
? Helicopter Rides.
? The Wichita Aircraft Manufacturing Tribute, featuring group aircraft flybys.
? Wright R-3350 Duplex Cyclone engine start, from the B-29 Superfortress ?Doc?. 
? Museum Aircraft open to the public.
? See the VATSIM virtual air traffic controllers in action.
? Food provided by Papa Johns.
? RC model airplane display.
? Public prize giveaways.
Special Exhibitor Activities? Free Cockpit Exhibitor registration.
? Complimentary Friday night Cockpit-Fest USA / AVSIM exhibitor dinner with special night time tour of museum aircraft and the terminal control Tower.
? Saturday awards ceremony with exhibitor prizes.
? Sunday morning social at Stearman Airport.
? Hosted at the Kansas Aviation Museum situated adjacent to McConnell AFB.
? Located next to Spirit AeroSystems where all 737 fuselages and Dreamliner cockpits are manufactured.

http://www.simadventure.com/?


>
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From Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com  Wed Feb 13 20:28:00 2013
From: Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com (Sean Galbraith)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 17:28:00 +1300
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <1360814930.83925.YahooMailNeo@web140201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.160.1360811817.2531.simpits-tech@simpits.org>
	<1360814930.83925.YahooMailNeo@web140201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE9173E@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>

Well, I *may* be doing an install into Miami in April/May so it might just work out...  Also want to visit Draken International, who just bought the ex-RNZAF A-4 Skyhawks, as well as the 2 sims, so you never know J

 

SeanG

 

From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Justin Messenger
Sent: Thursday, 14 February 2013 5:09 p.m.
To: simpits-tech at simpits.org
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator

 

>That was a great read.... but I am now pretty sure that Matt knows more
>about VOR signals than is actually healthy ;-)
>
>Fantastic work, and it is now quite obvious that I need to do a
>sim-seeing tour over your side of the pond sooner rather than later!
>
>SeanG

 

 Sean,

You should come for Cockpit-Fest this May 3rd, 4th, and 5th! Matt's will not only be there showing off his sim and nifty VOR indicator, his sim will be networked to my F-4 sim and a 737 sim via Pilot Edge ATC.  Matt and I have been working on interfacing transponders to make it all possible. He's also looking at installing an X-planes F-111 flight model so he can cruise with my F-4. We have general aviation headsets in all the sims so that makes for nice communications between the sims.

 

In case any of you missed the details, Cockpit-Fest USA 2013 is being sponsored by Spirit AreoSystems who manufactures the entire 737 fuselage and also the Dreamliner cockpits for Boeing. In addition to the special  737 exhibit being displayed inside the museum's 737, Spirit is considering bringing a brand new 737 fuselage from the factory to place on display. 

 

AVSIM is also holding their Fancon in conjunction with Cockpit-Fest and we already have software vendors signed up to attend from as far away as Poland. We are having to add major internet capacity to the museum facility to meet all of the vendor internet demand. VATSIM is going to have a 15 person team provide ATC from 10 computers set up in the Fuselage of the museum's KC-135 tanker.

 

The Viperpits guys will be back and some will be judges this year.

 

No matter if you bring a cockpit or just come to visit, its going to be a great event. 

 

Info and registration is available at 

http://www.kansasaviationmuseum.org/cockpitfest.php

 

AND

 

http://forum.avsim.net/page/FANCON%202013/index.html

 

General Public Activities:

? Open 10AM ? 5PM Saturday and Sunday.
? The Spirit AeroSystems 737 exhibit, celebrating over 10,000 aircraft ordered.
? The AVSIM Fancon, with simulation software vendors from around the world.
? Multiple aircraft simulators available to the public for flight.
? The new Boeing Kids Aerospace Education and Simulator Center.
? Helicopter Rides.
? The Wichita Aircraft Manufacturing Tribute, featuring group aircraft flybys.
? Wright R-3350 Duplex Cyclone engine start, from the B-29 Superfortress ?Doc?. 
? Museum Aircraft open to the public.
? See the VATSIM virtual air traffic controllers in action.
? Food provided by Papa Johns.
? RC model airplane display.
? Public prize giveaways.





Special Exhibitor Activities

? Free Cockpit Exhibitor registration.
? Complimentary Friday night Cockpit-Fest USA / AVSIM exhibitor dinner with special night time tour of museum aircraft and the terminal control Tower.
? Saturday awards ceremony with exhibitor prizes.
? Sunday morning social at Stearman Airport.
? Hosted at the Kansas Aviation Museum situated adjacent to McConnell AFB.
? Located next to Spirit AeroSystems where all 737 fuselages and Dreamliner cockpits are manufactured.

 

http://www.simadventure.com/ 

 

	 

________________________________

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6100 - Release Date: 02/12/13

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From jjmessenger at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 13 20:36:45 2013
From: jjmessenger at yahoo.com (Justin Messenger)
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 20:36:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE9173E@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
References: <mailman.160.1360811817.2531.simpits-tech@simpits.org>
	<1360814930.83925.YahooMailNeo@web140201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE9173E@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
Message-ID: <1360816605.22259.YahooMailNeo@web140204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

There is an outfit in town that stores an A-4 in a hanger at a local airport. They restored it to flying condition but there is a hang up of some sort and it just sits in storage leaking fluids on the floor. 
?
When they were testing the tanker booms?for?the 767 tankers there was a contract A-4 here at McConnell for a long time flying test missions with the tankers. Sadly it has flown away for good.
?
Are those two A-4 sims operating?????
?
Justin

http://www.simadventure.com/?

From: Sean Galbraith <Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com>
>To: Justin Messenger <jjmessenger at yahoo.com>; Simulator Cockpit Builder's List <simpits-tech at simpits.org> 
>Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:28 PM
>Subject: RE: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
>
>
>Well, I *may* be doing an install into Miami in April/May so it might just work out...? Also want to visit Draken International, who just bought the ex-RNZAF A-4 Skyhawks, as well as the 2 sims, so you never know J
>?
>SeanG
>?
>From
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From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Feb 14 06:23:01 2013
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 06:23:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE91724@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302130554570.1786@deltasoft.com>
	<20130213165356.9HW72.261908.imail@eastrmwml207>
	<7F8018B36336694D81D4C60C9DD1E2C503FE6315C6CA@exchange.ejection.local>
	<2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE91724@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302140621200.23713@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Sean Galbraith wrote:

> That was a great read.... but I am now pretty sure that Matt knows more
> about VOR signals than is actually healthy ;-)
>

That might be so, but it's the kind of thing I love reading about.  Just 
about anyone can take an existing instrument, tear it down and re-gut it 
with easy to drive components.  The way Matt did it not only makes for a 
great instrument conversion, but he learned a whole ton in the process.

Very cool.

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Feb 14 06:33:32 2013
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 06:33:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <20130214025209.8UWX9.265895.imail@eastrmwml302>
References: <20130214025209.8UWX9.265895.imail@eastrmwml302>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302140633070.23713@deltasoft.com>

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, dabigboy at cox.net wrote:

> Perhaps. There is an audio generator card for the Arduino, but it would probably not offer any huge advantage over a PC soundcard.
>
> I have like 8 soundcards between all my sim PCs, so it' not a big deal. :)
>
I bet you could get the SID chip in a Commodore 64 to do the job for you. 
:)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

From wledzian1 at comcast.net  Thu Feb 14 09:31:27 2013
From: wledzian1 at comcast.net (wledzian1 at comcast.net)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 17:31:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <20130213165356.9HW72.261908.imail@eastrmwml207>
Message-ID: <1693606919.448996.1360863087743.JavaMail.root@sz0210a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

Matt, 

Can you point me towards your reference material? I can't find anything online more detailed than the Wikipedia article. 
Are you generating WAVs with two fixed frequencies, or do your samples include an FM-modulated 9960Hz and a phase-shifted 30Hz signal? 


My understanding of how a VOR works is as follows. If I'm wrong, please correct me. 

- The VOR does not broadcast two separate signals to provide the omnidirectional and directional components. 

- The VOR base signal is an AM signal in the 108.00MHz-117.95MHz range. This signal carries a 9960Hz subcarrier frequency-modulated to carry a reference 30Hz sine wave whose phase does not vary with your position. 
- The antenna is rotated (electronically or mechanically) at 30Hz. This effectively and strongly superimposes a 30HZ AM signal onto the base signal, with phase dependent on your position relative to the station. 

The receiving equipment demodulates the signal and sends it to the VOR head unit. The head unit splits the signal into the 30Hz directional signal and the 9960Hz subcarrier. The subcarrier is then FM-demodulated to recover the 30Hz reference signal. The reference and directional signals are then compared to determine the relative phase shift. Tuning the OBS knob adjusts a phase-shift circuit on one of the signals - when the signals are in sync, the difference is zero, and the needle is centered. 

To quote Mike Powell, "I may not be as smart as I think I am". If I'm wrong in the above, please correct me. 

-Wayne 

----- Original Message -----
From: dabigboy at cox.net 
To: "Simulator Cockpit Builder's List" <simpits-tech at simpits.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:53:56 AM 
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator 


---- geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote: 
> On Tue, 12 Feb 2013, dabigboy at cox.net wrote: 
> 
> > Thanks! I used my sound card. :) 
> > 
> Ok, that all by itself requires a lengthy explanation. :) 
> 
> g. 

LOL! OK, here's more or less what happened: 

So I had been wanting to get my hands on a real VOR indicator for a while, with the basic plan that I could gut it and use the electrical bits to read OBS setting, and use PWM pins on the Arduino to drive the needle (since, as I understood it, the needle was just a simple D'Arsonval meter). I eventually purchased this KI-201C on ebay for like $30 shipped, mostly just to see what I could do with it. When I got to looking at the instrument and the documentation for it (found on the 'net), I realized that the signal driving the gauge only required three pins, and two of them were actually *output* for an autopilot connection....so only one pin was used for signal input. Intrigued, I started hitting the internet for more info........ 

Having sat through ground school years ago, I knew that the signal coming from a VOR station was "two different signals that vary based on your orientation to the station"....and that was about as far as a typical ground school instructor would go. It turns out, the composite VOR signal is pretty interesting. Each ground station puts out an omni-directional signal which is composed of a 30hz sine wave, plus the Morse stuff on a different frequency. The "rotating antenna" (actually a circular array of antennae on the ground that is electronically "rotated") puts out another 30hz signal, but is composed of a 9960hz carrier signal. The phasing of the two signals determines what radial you are on, and the 9960hz signal helps keep them "separated", so to speak.The 9960hz signal also allows the signal to be differentiated, if the two 30hz tones are 180* out of phase, for instance (otherwise there would be no difference between the 0* radial and 180*). 

The complex thing is that the 9960hz carrier signal is frequency-modulated at 30hz, and where the 9960hz signal is at depends on where the 30hz signal is at in its phase. This is the hardest part.......I was getting the right idea, but wasn't sure exactly how to make it work. One thing I knew, that 9960hz was well within the ability of a computer's sound card to produce, so I *should* be able to actually generate this signal myself. 

Then I come across a post on a message board from 2006 where some folks were discussing VOR signals. One poster was a ham radio operator and mentioned that he had actually written a program that generates all the signals for a VOR gauge. I emailed him and, thankfully, his address was still active. He generously sent me his entire program, source code and all! Unfortunately it was written as a Visual Studio project, and there was so much Microsoft fluff involved, I wasn't sure exactly how to read the code and apply it to my Python/Linux work. So, I fired up my barely-used copy of VS 2010, migrated his project, made some tweaks to get it to run (his program was from 2001, so it was written in an old version of VS), and actually got it to output the tones for each radial. 

I then used Audacity to record each radial, 0*-359*, and saved them as WAVs. After that, I wrote software that calculates the current radial from X-Plane, then plays the appropriate WAV file. 

The really tricky thing is that the calibration is funky....depending on what radial I'm at, the error is anywhere from no error at all, to around 30*. So, I had to write a calibration table to send the correct WAV to the sound card. I'm not sure if this is a problem with the instrument, weirdness with my sound card (the phasing is actually messed up by the soundcard, but it's supposed to be a constant error that you can allow for in software), or something funky caused by playing pre-recorded WAVs instead of generating the tone in real time. I've got it pretty well working within 4 degrees accuracy or so, but there are a few radials that are off by more than 20* still..........I think it's a problem with my radial-calculating code (the X-Plane SDK does not seem to have a dataref for current VOR radial, I have to subtract relative bearing to the VOR from current heading, then apply corrections to keep the resulting value within 0-360). But it is working, which is the main thi 
ng. I don't think the calibration errors will be hard to fix. 

If I wrote my software to generate the 30hz tone and the 9960hz modulated at 30hz, I'm pretty sure I could fill in the gaps of my knowledge through experimentation and study of the other guy's code.....but what I'm doing now with the WAVs appears to work just fine, so I will probably leave it. 

Now, the astute observer might note that the signal coming from a real VOR station is actually an AMPLITUDE-modulated signal between 108mhz and 119.95mhz, and you would be correct! That's the carrier signal to broadcast to your plane. The NAV receiver in the plane de-modulates that AM signal to yield the "clean" VOR composite signal, which is what goes to the indicator. Theoretically, if I designed a device that takes my current signal and amplitude-modulates it at the above frequencies (basically, half of an AM radio transmitter), I could run the signal right into the antenna input of a real NAV radio and actually be able to use all the tuning and functionality of the real radio! This is overkill for me though, I already have nice Gables control heads doing my nav/com stuff (plus good NAV radios are over $1,000 a piece.........) 

So what is all this magic inside the VOR indicator itself? It is simply a phase-shifter, and the VOR needle indicates how far out of phase the two signals are....turn the OBS knob until the shifted signals are in phase, and the needle will be centered. 

Matt 
_______________________________________________ 
Simpits-tech mailing list 
Simpits-tech at simpits.org 
http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech 
To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! 
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From dabigboy at cox.net  Thu Feb 14 20:37:17 2013
From: dabigboy at cox.net (dabigboy at cox.net)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 20:37:17 -0800
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302140633070.23713@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <20130215043717.F9X1E.281234.imail@eastrmwml114>


---- geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote: 
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, dabigboy at cox.net wrote:
> 
> > Perhaps. There is an audio generator card for the Arduino, but it would probably not offer any huge advantage over a PC soundcard.
> >
> > I have like 8 soundcards between all my sim PCs, so it' not a big deal. :)
> >
> I bet you could get the SID chip in a Commodore 64 to do the job for you. 
> :)

Now you're just giving me all kinds of crazy ideas to try!!! :P

Matt

From dabigboy at cox.net  Thu Feb 14 20:51:30 2013
From: dabigboy at cox.net (dabigboy at cox.net)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 20:51:30 -0800
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <1693606919.448996.1360863087743.JavaMail.root@sz0210a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20130215045130.P9SJH.281327.imail@eastrmwml114>

Wayne, that sounds about right. I should point out that Doppler VOR (DVOR) uses frequency modulation on the 30hz variable signal, whereas conventional VOR amplitude-modulates the signal (something I kinda missed in my previous lengthy explanation).

I don't really have a set of good references for you, I just grabbed bits and pieces off the net over a period of several days. I did just come across this link, which goes into even more detail that I had missed before with regard to CVOR vs DVOR:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_Doppler_VOR_subcarrier_frequency_is_9960_Hz

I did study an excerpt from an avionics book, I believe it was Principles of Avionics by Albert Helfrick. That is probably the single most important resource I found, aside from the program that the ham radio guy sent me (the book is pricey, but GoogleBooks had a few pages as a "sample" which happened to include a sizable portion of the VOR discussion).

Matt

---- wledzian1 at comcast.net wrote: 
> Matt, 
> 
> Can you point me towards your reference material? I can't find anything online more detailed than the Wikipedia article. 
> Are you generating WAVs with two fixed frequencies, or do your samples include an FM-modulated 9960Hz and a phase-shifted 30Hz signal? 
> 
> 
> My understanding of how a VOR works is as follows. If I'm wrong, please correct me. 
> 
> - The VOR does not broadcast two separate signals to provide the omnidirectional and directional components. 
> 
> - The VOR base signal is an AM signal in the 108.00MHz-117.95MHz range. This signal carries a 9960Hz subcarrier frequency-modulated to carry a reference 30Hz sine wave whose phase does not vary with your position. 
> - The antenna is rotated (electronically or mechanically) at 30Hz. This effectively and strongly superimposes a 30HZ AM signal onto the base signal, with phase dependent on your position relative to the station. 
> 
> The receiving equipment demodulates the signal and sends it to the VOR head unit. The head unit splits the signal into the 30Hz directional signal and the 9960Hz subcarrier. The subcarrier is then FM-demodulated to recover the 30Hz reference signal. The reference and directional signals are then compared to determine the relative phase shift. Tuning the OBS knob adjusts a phase-shift circuit on one of the signals - when the signals are in sync, the difference is zero, and the needle is centered. 
> 
> To quote Mike Powell, "I may not be as smart as I think I am". If I'm wrong in the above, please correct me. 
> 
> -Wayne 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: dabigboy at cox.net 
> To: "Simulator Cockpit Builder's List" <simpits-tech at simpits.org> 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 8:53:56 AM 
> Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator 
> 
> 
> ---- geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote: 
> > On Tue, 12 Feb 2013, dabigboy at cox.net wrote: 
> > 
> > > Thanks! I used my sound card. :) 
> > > 
> > Ok, that all by itself requires a lengthy explanation. :) 
> > 
> > g. 
> 
> LOL! OK, here's more or less what happened: 
> 
> So I had been wanting to get my hands on a real VOR indicator for a while, with the basic plan that I could gut it and use the electrical bits to read OBS setting, and use PWM pins on the Arduino to drive the needle (since, as I understood it, the needle was just a simple D'Arsonval meter). I eventually purchased this KI-201C on ebay for like $30 shipped, mostly just to see what I could do with it. When I got to looking at the instrument and the documentation for it (found on the 'net), I realized that the signal driving the gauge only required three pins, and two of them were actually *output* for an autopilot connection....so only one pin was used for signal input. Intrigued, I started hitting the internet for more info........ 
> 
> Having sat through ground school years ago, I knew that the signal coming from a VOR station was "two different signals that vary based on your orientation to the station"....and that was about as far as a typical ground school instructor would go. It turns out, the composite VOR signal is pretty interesting. Each ground station puts out an omni-directional signal which is composed of a 30hz sine wave, plus the Morse stuff on a different frequency. The "rotating antenna" (actually a circular array of antennae on the ground that is electronically "rotated") puts out another 30hz signal, but is composed of a 9960hz carrier signal. The phasing of the two signals determines what radial you are on, and the 9960hz signal helps keep them "separated", so to speak.The 9960hz signal also allows the signal to be differentiated, if the two 30hz tones are 180* out of phase, for instance (otherwise there would be no difference between the 0* radial and 180*). 
> 
> The complex thing is that the 9960hz carrier signal is frequency-modulated at 30hz, and where the 9960hz signal is at depends on where the 30hz signal is at in its phase. This is the hardest part.......I was getting the right idea, but wasn't sure exactly how to make it work. One thing I knew, that 9960hz was well within the ability of a computer's sound card to produce, so I *should* be able to actually generate this signal myself. 
> 
> Then I come across a post on a message board from 2006 where some folks were discussing VOR signals. One poster was a ham radio operator and mentioned that he had actually written a program that generates all the signals for a VOR gauge. I emailed him and, thankfully, his address was still active. He generously sent me his entire program, source code and all! Unfortunately it was written as a Visual Studio project, and there was so much Microsoft fluff involved, I wasn't sure exactly how to read the code and apply it to my Python/Linux work. So, I fired up my barely-used copy of VS 2010, migrated his project, made some tweaks to get it to run (his program was from 2001, so it was written in an old version of VS), and actually got it to output the tones for each radial. 
> 
> I then used Audacity to record each radial, 0*-359*, and saved them as WAVs. After that, I wrote software that calculates the current radial from X-Plane, then plays the appropriate WAV file. 
> 
> The really tricky thing is that the calibration is funky....depending on what radial I'm at, the error is anywhere from no error at all, to around 30*. So, I had to write a calibration table to send the correct WAV to the sound card. I'm not sure if this is a problem with the instrument, weirdness with my sound card (the phasing is actually messed up by the soundcard, but it's supposed to be a constant error that you can allow for in software), or something funky caused by playing pre-recorded WAVs instead of generating the tone in real time. I've got it pretty well working within 4 degrees accuracy or so, but there are a few radials that are off by more than 20* still..........I think it's a problem with my radial-calculating code (the X-Plane SDK does not seem to have a dataref for current VOR radial, I have to subtract relative bearing to the VOR from current heading, then apply corrections to keep the resulting value within 0-360). But it is working, which is the main thi
>   
> ng. I don't think the calibration errors will be hard to fix. 
> 
> If I wrote my software to generate the 30hz tone and the 9960hz modulated at 30hz, I'm pretty sure I could fill in the gaps of my knowledge through experimentation and study of the other guy's code.....but what I'm doing now with the WAVs appears to work just fine, so I will probably leave it. 
> 
> Now, the astute observer might note that the signal coming from a real VOR station is actually an AMPLITUDE-modulated signal between 108mhz and 119.95mhz, and you would be correct! That's the carrier signal to broadcast to your plane. The NAV receiver in the plane de-modulates that AM signal to yield the "clean" VOR composite signal, which is what goes to the indicator. Theoretically, if I designed a device that takes my current signal and amplitude-modulates it at the above frequencies (basically, half of an AM radio transmitter), I could run the signal right into the antenna input of a real NAV radio and actually be able to use all the tuning and functionality of the real radio! This is overkill for me though, I already have nice Gables control heads doing my nav/com stuff (plus good NAV radios are over $1,000 a piece.........) 
> 
> So what is all this magic inside the VOR indicator itself? It is simply a phase-shifter, and the VOR needle indicates how far out of phase the two signals are....turn the OBS knob until the shifted signals are in phase, and the needle will be centered. 
> 
> Matt 
> _______________________________________________ 
> Simpits-tech mailing list 
> Simpits-tech at simpits.org 
> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech 
> To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! 


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Feb 15 05:51:14 2013
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 05:51:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <20130215043717.F9X1E.281234.imail@eastrmwml114>
References: <20130215043717.F9X1E.281234.imail@eastrmwml114>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302150550560.10888@deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, dabigboy at cox.net wrote:

>
> ---- geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, dabigboy at cox.net wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps. There is an audio generator card for the Arduino, but it would probably not offer any huge advantage over a PC soundcard.
>>>
>>> I have like 8 soundcards between all my sim PCs, so it' not a big deal. :)
>>>
>> I bet you could get the SID chip in a Commodore 64 to do the job for you.
>> :)
>
> Now you're just giving me all kinds of crazy ideas to try!!! :P
>
Then my work here is done. :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

From dabigboy at cox.net  Fri Feb 15 09:37:13 2013
From: dabigboy at cox.net (dabigboy at cox.net)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 9:37:13 -0800
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <1693606919.448996.1360863087743.JavaMail.root@sz0210a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20130215173713.7EC92.286090.imail@eastrmwml304>

Wayne, I just realized I did not respond to the first part of your question.

---- wledzian1 at comcast.net wrote: 
> Matt, 
> 
> Can you point me towards your reference material? I can't find anything online more detailed than the Wikipedia article. 
> Are you generating WAVs with two fixed frequencies, or do your samples include an FM-modulated 9960Hz and a phase-shifted 30Hz signal? 

The latter is the case. Well, you do end up with two distinct tones, but the reference tone is made up of a 9960hz signal that is modulated at 30hz. The "simple" 30hz tone is just a clean sine wave that is phase-shifted as many degrees as the current VOR radial.

Most VOR indicators are looking for about 0.4vrms input (which is right in-line with what a PC sound card puts out)....but if you pipe the signal through speakers (that is, just play the WAVs like a regular audio file with speakers connected), it sounds really funky. :)

Matt

From pascal at pascal.org  Fri Feb 15 09:55:08 2013
From: pascal at pascal.org (Freeman P. Pascal IV)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 10:55:08 -0700
Subject: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator
In-Reply-To: <20130215173713.7EC92.286090.imail@eastrmwml304>
References: <1693606919.448996.1360863087743.JavaMail.root@sz0210a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<20130215173713.7EC92.286090.imail@eastrmwml304>
Message-ID: <017301ce0ba5$99651110$cc2f3330$@pascal.org>

Do you have a sample of what it sounds like?  I would be interested in
hearing it.

-----Original Message-----
From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org
[mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of dabigboy at cox.net
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 10:37 AM
To: Simulator Cockpit Builder's List
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Real VOR indicator

Wayne, I just realized I did not respond to the first part of your question.

---- wledzian1 at comcast.net wrote: 
> Matt, 
> 
> Can you point me towards your reference material? I can't find anything
online more detailed than the Wikipedia article. 
> Are you generating WAVs with two fixed frequencies, or do your samples
include an FM-modulated 9960Hz and a phase-shifted 30Hz signal? 

The latter is the case. Well, you do end up with two distinct tones, but the
reference tone is made up of a 9960hz signal that is modulated at 30hz. The
"simple" 30hz tone is just a clean sine wave that is phase-shifted as many
degrees as the current VOR radial.

Most VOR indicators are looking for about 0.4vrms input (which is right
in-line with what a PC sound card puts out)....but if you pipe the signal
through speakers (that is, just play the WAVs like a regular audio file with
speakers connected), it sounds really funky. :)

Matt
_______________________________________________
Simpits-tech mailing list
Simpits-tech at simpits.org
http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page.
Thanks!


From jjmessenger at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 17 10:23:24 2013
From: jjmessenger at yahoo.com (Justin Messenger)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 10:23:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
Message-ID: <1361125404.74804.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>



?I added two projectors. the camera is above and behind the sim so the perspective looks different than in the cockpit. Keep in mind the side screens are actually the same size as the center screen. 

Its not perfect, but its a heck of a lot better than flying with just the center screen. The g suit and screens make a good combination.

Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP0vepDFJ7w&feature=youtu.be
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From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Feb 17 13:49:31 2013
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 13:49:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <1361125404.74804.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1361125404.74804.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171347130.25681@deltasoft.com>

On Sun, 17 Feb 2013, Justin Messenger wrote:

>
>
> ?I added two projectors. the camera is above and behind the sim so the 
> perspective looks different than in the cockpit. Keep in mind the side 
> screens are actually the same size as the center screen.
>
> Its not perfect, but its a heck of a lot better than flying with just 
> the center screen. The g suit and screens make a good combination.
>
*drools over operating canopy*

You should check out this thread:
http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t?731&highlight=the+cube

The system they outline there is very likely what I'm going to use for the 
F-15C as it'll give me 360 degrees horizontal display as well overhead.

g.



-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

From Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com  Sun Feb 17 14:10:37 2013
From: Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com (Sean Galbraith)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 11:10:37 +1300
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171347130.25681@deltasoft.com>
References: <1361125404.74804.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171347130.25681@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE91769@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>

>> ?I added two projectors. the camera is above and behind the sim so the 
>> perspective looks different than in the cockpit. Keep in mind the side 
>> screens are actually the same size as the center screen.
>>
>> Its not perfect, but its a heck of a lot better than flying with just 
>> the center screen. The g suit and screens make a good combination.
>>
>*drools over operating canopy*
>
>You should check out this thread:
>http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=90731&highlight=the+cube

I agree on the canopy... <envious!>

The idea of a "projection cave" is good, and I'd love to do it as well, but I'm limited as to space :(  I *hope* to score another projector from a sim upgrade I'm doing in the next couple of months, which will mean I can do a similar projection setup to Justin's.  But even that will mean the sim room needs to get wider by a "little bit" (which is the description that I have used when explaining it to my new wife...).  What the dimensions will have to be to make it work I am actually not entirely sure....

SeanG

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Feb 17 14:19:23 2013
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 14:19:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE91769@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
References: <1361125404.74804.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171347130.25681@deltasoft.com>
	<2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE91769@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171415480.26634@deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013, Sean Galbraith wrote:

>>> ?I added two projectors. the camera is above and behind the sim so the
>>> perspective looks different than in the cockpit. Keep in mind the side
>>> screens are actually the same size as the center screen.
>>>
>>> Its not perfect, but its a heck of a lot better than flying with just
>>> the center screen. The g suit and screens make a good combination.
>>>
>> *drools over operating canopy*
>>
>> You should check out this thread:
>> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t?731&highlight=the+cube
>
> I agree on the canopy... <envious!>
>
It kills me that the canopy I have is so torqued out of true.  It would 
take a master A&P with the right tools to make it right. :(

Rob did get the last of the sanding done on it after we cut out all the 
shatterd acrylic.  I have the new trim piece cut as well, just need to 
clean it up and get it drilled out.

> The idea of a "projection cave" is good, and I'd love to do it as well, 
> but I'm limited as to space :( I *hope* to score another projector from 
> a sim upgrade I'm doing in the next couple of months, which will mean I 
> can do a similar projection setup to Justin's.  But even that will mean 
> the sim room needs to get wider by a "little bit" (which is the 
> description that I have used when explaining it to my new wife...). 
> What the dimensions will have to be to make it work I am actually not 
> entirely sure....

Have you considered using short throw projectors and first surface fold 
mirrors?  You could use that trick to virtually double the distance from 
the projector to the screen.  This is how Wayne & I did it on the 
collimated display.  However, the take-off angle was shallow enough that 
we were able to use standard mirrors.

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

From Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com  Sun Feb 17 14:25:37 2013
From: Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com (Sean Galbraith)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 11:25:37 +1300
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171415480.26634@deltasoft.com>
References: <1361125404.74804.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171347130.25681@deltasoft.com>
	<2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE91769@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171415480.26634@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE9176B@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>

>> The idea of a "projection cave" is good, and I'd love to do it as 
>> well, but I'm limited as to space :( I *hope* to score another 
>> projector from a sim upgrade I'm doing in the next couple of months, 
>> which will mean I can do a similar projection setup to Justin's.  But

>> even that will mean the sim room needs to get wider by a "little bit"

>> (which is the description that I have used when explaining it to my
new wife...).
>> What the dimensions will have to be to make it work I am actually not

>> entirely sure....
>
>Have you considered using short throw projectors and first surface fold
mirrors?  You could use that trick to virtually double the 
>distance from the projector to the screen.  This is how Wayne & I did
it on the collimated display.  However, the take-off angle was
>shallow enough that we were able to use standard mirrors.

I am using a nice viewsonic short-throw projector now, nice and bright
at 2700 lumens which means it is mounted almost directly over your head
when you're sitting in the pit.  Problem is; the room is very narrow
right now, so it'll have to get wider :)  Using the folded mirrors might
work, but I'll have to experiment.

SeanG

From dabigboy at cox.net  Sun Feb 17 15:02:34 2013
From: dabigboy at cox.net (dabigboy at cox.net)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 15:02:34 -0800
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171347130.25681@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <20130217230234.UXBNX.242524.imail@fed1rmwml304>


---- geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote: 
> On Sun, 17 Feb 2013, Justin Messenger wrote:
> >
> > Its not perfect, but its a heck of a lot better than flying with just 
> > the center screen. The g suit and screens make a good combination.
> >
> *drools over operating canopy*

I can tell you firsthand, strapping into this thing, all geared up with the g-suit and whatnot, and closing up the canopy, is pretty awesome. :) I can only handle about 6 seconds at max G, however! But then I'm kinda a big boy, I think I ripped one of Justin's g-suits. :P

Matt


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Feb 17 15:02:56 2013
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 15:02:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE9176B@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
References: <1361125404.74804.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171347130.25681@deltasoft.com>
	<2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE91769@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171415480.26634@deltasoft.com>
	<2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE9176B@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171502510.27147@deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013, Sean Galbraith wrote:

> I am using a nice viewsonic short-throw projector now, nice and bright
> at 2700 lumens which means it is mounted almost directly over your head
> when you're sitting in the pit.  Problem is; the room is very narrow
> right now, so it'll have to get wider :)  Using the folded mirrors might
> work, but I'll have to experiment.

Hit the local glass shop and get yourself a bit to test with.  If it works 
out and it turns out the angle is steep enough to require it, get yourself 
some first-surface mirrors to do the job right.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

From Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com  Sun Feb 17 15:14:33 2013
From: Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com (Sean Galbraith)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 12:14:33 +1300
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171502510.27147@deltasoft.com>
References: <1361125404.74804.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171347130.25681@deltasoft.com>
	<2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE91769@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171415480.26634@deltasoft.com>
	<2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE9176B@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171502510.27147@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE91770@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>

I actually have a pile of bits of mirror here from experiments with
curved screens and HD projectors....  even have some curved truck
mirrors to play with (they let you throw a really wide image... shame
the quality bites....)

SeanG

-----Original Message-----
From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org
[mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of geneb
Sent: Monday, 18 February 2013 12:03 p.m.
To: Simulator Cockpit Builder's List
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013, Sean Galbraith wrote:

> I am using a nice viewsonic short-throw projector now, nice and bright

> at 2700 lumens which means it is mounted almost directly over your 
> head when you're sitting in the pit.  Problem is; the room is very 
> narrow right now, so it'll have to get wider :)  Using the folded 
> mirrors might work, but I'll have to experiment.

Hit the local glass shop and get yourself a bit to test with.  If it
works out and it turns out the angle is steep enough to require it, get
yourself some first-surface mirrors to do the job right.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value
database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
_______________________________________________
Simpits-tech mailing list
Simpits-tech at simpits.org
http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above
page.  Thanks!

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6110 - Release Date:
02/17/13

From dabigboy at cox.net  Sun Feb 17 15:15:47 2013
From: dabigboy at cox.net (dabigboy at cox.net)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 15:15:47 -0800
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <1361125404.74804.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20130217231547.RZSUU.242633.imail@fed1rmwml304>

Very nice! I love how you can see the scenery reflecting off the cockpit exterior. :) I definitely gotta jump back in for some flight time in May!

Man that Grand Canyon looks like fun flying!!!! I think we'd be fine to fly together in the GC, I suspect XP and MSFS are close enough that an occasional flight-through-terrain by other aircraft would be tolerable. :) I'm sure they're based off similar GIS data, if not the same. We'll have to give it a shot with PE soon....I can always tweak the GC scenery in XP if there is a huge disparity.

I think once I get my short-throws I will experiment with a similar setup for the time being, until I get the screen warping plugin squared away and make my cylindrical screen. Are those side screens at 90* to the main, or are they canted out a little?

Matt

---- Justin Messenger <jjmessenger at yahoo.com> wrote: 
> 

?I added two projectors. the camera is above and behind the sim so the perspective looks different than in the cockpit. Keep in mind the side screens are actually the same size as the center screen. 

Its not perfect, but its a heck of a lot better than flying with just the center screen. The g suit and screens make a good combination.

Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP0vepDFJ7w&feature=youtu.be


From jjmessenger at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 18 18:21:15 2013
From: jjmessenger at yahoo.com (Justin Messenger)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 18:21:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171347130.25681@deltasoft.com>
References: <1361125404.74804.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171347130.25681@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <1361240475.68936.YahooMailNeo@web140201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Im convinced?flat panels are definately best for a fighter sim and curved screens for airliners. 
?
I may try to add an overhead view later in the year, if I can make it work with?the angles of my?side screens. In a tight turn?straight up?is exactly the?spot to look to see where youre going. 
?
Justin

http://www.simadventure.com/?

From: geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com>
>To: Justin Messenger <jjmessenger at yahoo.com>; Simulator Cockpit Builder's List <simpits-tech at simpits.org> 
>Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 3:49 PM
>Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
>
>On Sun, 17 Feb 2013, Justin Messenger wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> ?I added two projectors. the camera is above and behind the sim so the perspective looks different than in the cockpit. Keep in mind the side screens are actually the same size as the center screen.
>> 
>> Its not perfect, but its a heck of a lot better than flying with just the center screen. The g suit and screens make a good combination.
>> 
>*drools over operating canopy*
>
>You should check out this thread:
>http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t?731&highlight=the+cube
>
>The system they outline there is very likely what I'm going to use for the F-15C as it'll give me 360 degrees horizontal display as well overhead.
>
>g.
>
>
>
>-- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
>http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
>http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
>Some people collect things for a hobby.? Geeks collect hobbies.
>
>ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
>A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
>http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
>
>
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From Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com  Mon Feb 18 18:56:57 2013
From: Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com (Sean Galbraith)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 15:56:57 +1300
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <1361240475.68936.YahooMailNeo@web140201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1361125404.74804.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171347130.25681@deltasoft.com>
	<1361240475.68936.YahooMailNeo@web140201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE91796@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>

I used to have a front and an *up* view in an older generation of my
Skyhawk sim(s)... it was pretty cool when you were cranking it around a
turn ;-)


SeanG

 

From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org
[mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Justin Messenger
Sent: Tuesday, 19 February 2013 3:21 p.m.
To: geneb; Simulator Cockpit Builder's List
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test

 

Im convinced flat panels are definately best for a fighter sim and
curved screens for airliners. 

 

I may try to add an overhead view later in the year, if I can make it
work with the angles of my side screens. In a tight turn straight up is
exactly the spot to look to see where youre going. 

 

Justin

 

http://www.simadventure.com/ 

	 

	From: geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com>
	To: Justin Messenger <jjmessenger at yahoo.com>; Simulator Cockpit
Builder's List <simpits-tech at simpits.org> 
	Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 3:49 PM
	Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test

	
	On Sun, 17 Feb 2013, Justin Messenger wrote:
	
	> 
	> 
	>  I added two projectors. the camera is above and behind the
sim so the perspective looks different than in the cockpit. Keep in mind
the side screens are actually the same size as the center screen.
	> 
	> Its not perfect, but its a heck of a lot better than flying
with just the center screen. The g suit and screens make a good
combination.
	> 
	*drools over operating canopy*
	
	You should check out this thread:
	http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=90731&highlight=the+cube
	
	The system they outline there is very likely what I'm going to
use for the F-15C as it'll give me 360 degrees horizontal display as
well overhead.
	
	g.
	
	
	
	-- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
	http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
	http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
	Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
	
	ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
	A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
	http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

________________________________

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6112 - Release Date:
02/17/13

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From jjmessenger at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 18 19:18:00 2013
From: jjmessenger at yahoo.com (Justin Messenger)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 19:18:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <mailman.173.1361240477.2531.simpits-tech@simpits.org>
References: <mailman.173.1361240477.2531.simpits-tech@simpits.org>
Message-ID: <1361243880.44575.YahooMailNeo@web140202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

The screens are canted outward. This was due to #1 the front screen is set to the max width of the forward throw projector #2 Two years ago the forward screen was not built with side screens in mind #3 The ends of the side screens closest to the pilot are?canted out to get some distance from the eyes. A projector screen that is too close to the eyes really sucks.? I actually wish?they were?another 3 feet away. 
?
Matt, the g suit problem turned out to be my fault. I have to make sure its not too tight when zipping the legs or the zipper splits. Once zipped up it hold up fine in the sim. I just needed to let?the adjustment?out before it was zipped to your (skinny)?leg. 
?
Last night a friend flew with the suit and I noticed she never went into a stall. This is an F-4 we are talking about. No stall?= not pulling high g.?Brad Hawethorn flew next but with no suit. He went into?multiple stalls.?That is clear proof that the suit directly effects how aggressivly a person flys the sim :)
?
Brad got out of the sim, said?the flight?made him highly motivated, and he promptly went home to work on his latest projector project :)
?
Oddly enough the canopy was one of the early things I installed so I dont think about it much. Its just normal to have. The first year it didnt have an air system so it had to be raised by hand. Im so glad those days are over. That air system is what made it possible to install the g suit last year. It taps into the canopy air supply. The air compressor in located in a remote part of the museum and is why you cant hear the compressor when the sim is operating. 
?
Matt, Im going to order that repeater that you mentioned and maybe that will boost the internet signal enough?to handle?the Pilot Edge connection. P
?
And to answer the question about the transponder, PE uses adds?the SB3 interface to FSUIPC for FS9. SB3?functions dont?seem to move the annimated parts of the FS9 virtual transponder. Or my switch assignments are not working right, Im not sure which. Ill investigate more later this week. But I do have an active PE subscription now.
?
Justin
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From phoenixcomm at gmail.com  Tue Feb 19 02:17:13 2013
From: phoenixcomm at gmail.com (Cris Harrison)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 04:17:13 -0600
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <1361243880.44575.YahooMailNeo@web140202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.173.1361240477.2531.simpits-tech@simpits.org>
	<1361243880.44575.YahooMailNeo@web140202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAAqDk_7vPWAL7LXBT3EqPNBfJqoA_wftHd+k5aCGWq8z5GKnPA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Justin Messenger <jjmessenger at yahoo.com> wrote:
> The screens are canted outward. This was due to #1 the front screen is set
> to the max width of the forward throw projector #2 Two years ago the forward
> screen was not built with side screens in mind #3 The ends of the side
> screens closest to the pilot are canted out to get some distance from the
> eyes. A projector screen that is too close to the eyes really sucks.  I
> actually wish they were another 3 feet away.
>
> Matt, the g suit problem turned out to be my fault. I have to make sure its
> not too tight when zipping the legs or the zipper splits. Once zipped up it
> hold up fine in the sim. I just needed to let the adjustment out before it
> was zipped to your (skinny) leg.
>
> Last night a friend flew with the suit and I noticed she never went into a
> stall. This is an F-4 we are talking about. No stall = not pulling high g.
> Brad Hawethorn flew next but with no suit. He went into multiple stalls.
> That is clear proof that the suit directly effects how aggressivly a person
> flys the sim :)
>
> Brad got out of the sim, said the flight made him highly motivated, and he
> promptly went home to work on his latest projector project :)
>
> Oddly enough the canopy was one of the early things I installed so I dont
> think about it much. Its just normal to have. The first year it didnt have
> an air system so it had to be raised by hand. Im so glad those days are
> over. That air system is what made it possible to install the g suit last
> year. It taps into the canopy air supply. The air compressor in located in a
> remote part of the museum and is why you cant hear the compressor when the
> sim is operating.
>
> Matt, Im going to order that repeater that you mentioned and maybe that will
> boost the internet signal enough to handle the Pilot Edge connection. P
>
> And to answer the question about the transponder, PE uses adds the SB3
> interface to FSUIPC for FS9. SB3 functions dont seem to move the annimated
> parts of the FS9 virtual transponder. Or my switch assignments are not
> working right, Im not sure which. Ill investigate more later this week. But
> I do have an active PE subscription now.
>
> Justin
>
> _______________________________________________
> Simpits-tech mailing list
> Simpits-tech at simpits.org
> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
> To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page.
> Thanks!



justin
just a thought instead of messing about with repeaters for a hunk of
copper why dont you just get 2 fiber cards and hunk of fiber you
should be able to find the stuff out there.. on the cheap (surplus)..
and btw if you wanted to really remote it you can get a few klicks
out of it.:)

Cool breeze
Cris H.
phoenixcomm.wordpress.com
www.element14.com/community/people/phoenixcomm/blog

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Feb 19 06:59:52 2013
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 06:59:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE91796@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
References: <1361125404.74804.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302171347130.25681@deltasoft.com>
	<1361240475.68936.YahooMailNeo@web140201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE91796@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302190658530.3257@deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 19 Feb 2013, Sean Galbraith wrote:

> I used to have a front and an *up* view in an older generation of my
> Skyhawk sim(s)... it was pretty cool when you were cranking it around a
> turn ;-)
>
I looked into the throw distance of the existing Epson 705HD projectors I 
have now and it looks like I'll have to get new ones in order to pull of a 
"reasonably" sized cube. :(

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Feb 19 07:02:49 2013
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 07:02:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <1361243880.44575.YahooMailNeo@web140202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.173.1361240477.2531.simpits-tech@simpits.org>
	<1361243880.44575.YahooMailNeo@web140202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302190701310.3257@deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013, Justin Messenger wrote:

> Oddly enough the canopy was one of the early things I installed so I 
> dont think about it much. Its just normal to have. The first year it 
> didnt have an air system so it had to be raised by hand. Im so glad 
> those days are over. That air system is what made it possible to install 
> the g suit last year. It taps into the canopy air supply. The air

Justin, I've actually got a NIB g-suit metering block for the F-15 - any 
ideas where I can find a source of the g-suits?

tnx.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

From jjmessenger at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 07:55:02 2013
From: jjmessenger at yahoo.com (Justin Messenger)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 07:55:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302190701310.3257@deltasoft.com>
References: <mailman.173.1361240477.2531.simpits-tech@simpits.org>
	<1361243880.44575.YahooMailNeo@web140202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302190701310.3257@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <1361289302.13026.YahooMailNeo@web140206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

My extra large came from ebay. it was demilled (bladders cut) but I was able to repair it and make it work. I also have a small g suit for the little guys. now I need to find an xx large for the American sized visitors :)


http://www.simadventure.com/?


>________________________________
> From: geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com>
>To: Justin Messenger <jjmessenger at yahoo.com>; Simulator Cockpit Builder's List <simpits-tech at simpits.org> 
>Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 9:02 AM
>Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
>  
>On Mon, 18 Feb 2013, Justin Messenger wrote:
>
>> Oddly enough the canopy was one of the early things I installed so I dont think about it much. Its just normal to have. The first year it didnt have an air system so it had to be raised by hand. Im so glad those days are over. That air system is what made it possible to install the g suit last year. It taps into the canopy air supply. The air
>
>Justin, I've actually got a NIB g-suit metering block for the F-15 - any ideas where I can find a source of the g-suits?
>
>tnx.
>
>g.
>
>-- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
>http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
>http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
>Some people collect things for a hobby.? Geeks collect hobbies.
>
>ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
>A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
>http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
>
>
>   
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From jjmessenger at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 08:05:50 2013
From: jjmessenger at yahoo.com (Justin Messenger)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 08:05:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] FSUIPC offsets
Message-ID: <1361289950.88199.YahooMailNeo@web140201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Im using an open cockpit usb outputs card and want to use it for the master caution and low alt warning indicators with both FS9 and FSX. I take it there is no specific offset for Master Caution? I have to program all of the Master Caution paramaters in my own script? If so, that is a lot of extra work :/
?
It appears the 3424 LOW_HEIGHT_WARNING offset is not funtional? I?see the 3428 DECISION_HEIGHT offset?but it is not clear to me how to write script from this to activate a korry light. I assume this offset is actually?used as an output going to FSUIPC to adjust the decision hight? setting rather than an input coming from FSUIPC.
?
My back up plan is to trigger the korry from a value in the 31E4 4 Radio altitude in metres * 65536? offset. This of course would be set in stone and not adjustable in flight.

http://www.simadventure.com/?
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From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Feb 19 08:15:24 2013
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 08:15:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <1361289302.13026.YahooMailNeo@web140206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.173.1361240477.2531.simpits-tech@simpits.org>
	<1361243880.44575.YahooMailNeo@web140202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302190701310.3257@deltasoft.com>
	<1361289302.13026.YahooMailNeo@web140206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302190814540.6210@deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 19 Feb 2013, Justin Messenger wrote:

> My extra large came from ebay. it was demilled (bladders cut) but I was 
> able to repair it and make it work. I also have a small g suit for the 
> little guys. now I need to find an xx large for the American sized 
> visitors :)

What idiot would "demil" a g-suit?  That's just nuts.

Thanks, I'll go looking.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Feb 19 08:21:59 2013
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 08:21:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] FSUIPC offsets
In-Reply-To: <1361289950.88199.YahooMailNeo@web140201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1361289950.88199.YahooMailNeo@web140201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302190821120.6210@deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 19 Feb 2013, Justin Messenger wrote:

> Im using an open cockpit usb outputs card and want to use it for the 
> master caution and low alt warning indicators with both FS9 and FSX. I 
> take it there is no specific offset for Master Caution? I have to 
> program all of the Master Caution paramaters in my own script? If so, 
> that is a lot of extra work :/ ? It appears the 3424 LOW_HEIGHT_WARNING 
> offset is not funtional? I?see the 3428 DECISION_HEIGHT offset?but it is 
> not clear to me how to write script from this to activate a korry light. 
> I assume this offset is actually?used as an output going to FSUIPC to 
> adjust the decision hight? setting rather than an input coming from 
> FSUIPC. ? My back up plan is to trigger the korry from a value in the 
> 31E4 4 Radio altitude in metres * 65536? offset. This of course would be 
> set in stone and not adjustable in flight.

Justin, you might want to post a note in Peter Dowson's forum.  (don't 
email him directly, he bites!)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

From crease-guard at sbcglobal.net  Tue Feb 19 08:24:19 2013
From: crease-guard at sbcglobal.net (Joseph Fagner)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:24:19 -0600
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <1361289302.13026.YahooMailNeo@web140206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.173.1361240477.2531.simpits-tech@simpits.org>	<1361243880.44575.YahooMailNeo@web140202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302190701310.3257@deltasoft.com>
	<1361289302.13026.YahooMailNeo@web140206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <007e01ce0ebd$93129740$b937c5c0$@sbcglobal.net>

They don't make one that size for us yanks, no reason to since no one that
size would ever be cleared for flight anyways.

 

J

 

Show me a man who cannot be bothered to do the little things, and I will
show you a man who cannot be trusted to do the big ones.

--Lawrence Bell, Founder Bell Helicopter

From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org
[mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Justin Messenger
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 9:55 AM
To: Simpits Tech
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test

 

My extra large came from ebay. it was demilled (bladders cut) but I was able
to repair it and make it work. I also have a small g suit for the little
guys. now I need to find an xx large for the American sized visitors :)

 

http://www.simadventure.com/ 

 

From: geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com>
To: Justin Messenger <jjmessenger at yahoo.com>; Simulator Cockpit Builder's
List <simpits-tech at simpits.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test


On Mon, 18 Feb 2013, Justin Messenger wrote:

> Oddly enough the canopy was one of the early things I installed so I dont
think about it much. Its just normal to have. The first year it didnt have
an air system so it had to be raised by hand. Im so glad those days are
over. That air system is what made it possible to install the g suit last
year. It taps into the canopy air supply. The air

Justin, I've actually got a NIB g-suit metering block for the F-15 - any
ideas where I can find a source of the g-suits?

tnx.

g.

-- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!



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From crease-guard at sbcglobal.net  Tue Feb 19 08:25:15 2013
From: crease-guard at sbcglobal.net (Joseph Fagner)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:25:15 -0600
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302190814540.6210@deltasoft.com>
References: <mailman.173.1361240477.2531.simpits-tech@simpits.org>	<1361243880.44575.YahooMailNeo@web140202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302190701310.3257@deltasoft.com>	<1361289302.13026.YahooMailNeo@web140206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302190814540.6210@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <008301ce0ebd$b5914f50$20b3edf0$@sbcglobal.net>

Our Govt...need I say more?

j

Show me a man who cannot be bothered to do the little things, and I will
show you a man who cannot be trusted to do the big ones.
--Lawrence Bell, Founder Bell Helicopter
-----Original Message-----
From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org
[mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of geneb
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 10:15 AM
To: Justin Messenger; Simulator Cockpit Builder's List
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test

On Tue, 19 Feb 2013, Justin Messenger wrote:

> My extra large came from ebay. it was demilled (bladders cut) but I 
> was able to repair it and make it work. I also have a small g suit for 
> the little guys. now I need to find an xx large for the American sized 
> visitors :)

What idiot would "demil" a g-suit?  That's just nuts.

Thanks, I'll go looking.

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database
for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
_______________________________________________
Simpits-tech mailing list
Simpits-tech at simpits.org
http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page.
Thanks!


From raysot at comcast.net  Tue Feb 19 09:12:47 2013
From: raysot at comcast.net (raysot at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 17:12:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [simpits-tech] FSUIPC offsets
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302190821120.6210@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <74333961.1222489.1361293967459.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

A rather expensive but working solution is the 64Output card from Ruscool. 


http://www.ruscool.co.nz/control_boards.html 


I've been beta testing their 64-Out card and you can have up to 20 discreet FSUIPC 'events' trigger the Master Caution light. and/or WARN lights. The card also supports 4 separate 'Cancel' functions. 


It's not on the general market yet but if you tell them I sent you, they may add you to their beta testing. (Card is $217.. For me, worth the price cuz I aint getting any younger and I am pretty much done with programming. Ever since I took that approach, my sim progress has been lightning-quick) 







----- Original Message -----
From: "geneb" <geneb at deltasoft.com> 
To: "Justin Messenger" <jjmessenger at yahoo.com>, "Simulator Cockpit Builder's List" <simpits-tech at simpits.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 8:21:59 AM 
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] FSUIPC offsets 

On Tue, 19 Feb 2013, Justin Messenger wrote: 

> Im using an open cockpit usb outputs card and want to use it for the 
> master caution and low alt warning indicators with both FS9 and FSX. I 
> take it there is no specific offset for Master Caution? I have to 
> program all of the Master Caution paramaters in my own script? If so, 
> that is a lot of extra work :/ It appears the 3424 LOW_HEIGHT_WARNING 
> offset is not funtional? I see the 3428 DECISION_HEIGHT offset but it is 
> not clear to me how to write script from this to activate a korry light. 
> I assume this offset is actually used as an output going to FSUIPC to 
> adjust the decision hight setting rather than an input coming from 
> FSUIPC. My back up plan is to trigger the korry from a value in the 
> 31E4 4 Radio altitude in metres * 65536 offset. This of course would be 
> set in stone and not adjustable in flight. 

Justin, you might want to post a note in Peter Dowson's forum. (don't 
email him directly, he bites!) 

g. 

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. 
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. 
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. 

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment 
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. 
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! 
_______________________________________________ 
Simpits-tech mailing list 
Simpits-tech at simpits.org 
http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech 
To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! 
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From jjmessenger at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 09:35:28 2013
From: jjmessenger at yahoo.com (Justin Messenger)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 09:35:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] 737-200 bell location
Message-ID: <1361295328.57703.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Anyone know where the bells are located in a 737-200? In a 707 they are under the S/O's table. I have no clue where they are hidden in the 737.
?
?
?Thanks. 
Justin
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From jjmessenger at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 19 09:37:10 2013
From: jjmessenger at yahoo.com (Justin Messenger)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 09:37:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] FSUIPC offsets
In-Reply-To: <74333961.1222489.1361293967459.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302190821120.6210@deltasoft.com>
	<74333961.1222489.1361293967459.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1361295430.23442.YahooMailNeo@web140206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

The logic sounds a?bit?like PM systems. 
?
Justin

http://www.simadventure.com/?


>________________________________
> From: "raysot at comcast.net" <raysot at comcast.net>
>To: Simulator Cockpit Builder's List <simpits-tech at simpits.org> 
>Cc: Justin Messenger <jjmessenger at yahoo.com> 
>Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 11:12 AM
>Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] FSUIPC offsets
>  
>
>A rather expensive but working solution is the 64Output card from Ruscool.
>
>
>http://www.ruscool.co.nz/control_boards.html
>
>
>I've been beta testing their 64-Out card and you can have up to 20 discreet FSUIPC 'events' trigger the Master Caution light. and/or WARN lights. The card also supports 4 separate 'Cancel' functions.
>
>
>It's not on the general market yet but if you tell them I sent you, they may add you to their beta testing. (Card is $217.. For me, worth the price cuz I aint getting any younger and I am pretty much done with programming. Ever since I took that approach, my sim progress has been lightning-quick)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>________________________________
>From: "geneb" <geneb at deltasoft.com>
>To: "Justin Messenger" <jjmessenger at yahoo.com>, "Simulator Cockpit Builder's List" <simpits-tech at simpits.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 8:21:59 AM
>Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] FSUIPC offsets
>
>On Tue, 19 Feb 2013, Justin Messenger wrote:
>
>> Im using an open cockpit usb outputs card and want to use it for the 
>> master caution and low alt warning indicators with both FS9 and FSX. I 
>> take it there is no specific offset for Master Caution? I have to 
>> program all of the Master Caution paramaters in my own script? If so, 
>> that is a lot of extra work :/ ? It appears the 3424 LOW_HEIGHT_WARNING 
>> offset is not funtional? I?see the 3428 DECISION_HEIGHT offset?but it is 
>> not clear to me how to write script from this to activate a korry light. 
>> I assume this offset is actually?used as an output going to FSUIPC to 
>> adjust the decision hight? setting rather than an input coming from 
>> FSUIPC. ? My back up plan is to trigger the korry from a value in the 
>> 31E4 4 Radio altitude in metres * 65536? offset. This of course would be 
>> set in stone and not adjustable in flight.
>
>Justin, you might want to post a note in Peter Dowson's forum. ?(don't 
>email him directly, he bites!)
>
>g.
>
>-- 
>Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
>http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
>http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
>Some people collect things for a hobby. ?Geeks collect hobbies.
>
>ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
>A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
>http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
>_______________________________________________
>Simpits-tech mailing list
>Simpits-tech at simpits.org
>http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
>To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. ?Thanks!
>
>   
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From raysot at comcast.net  Tue Feb 19 09:49:12 2013
From: raysot at comcast.net (raysot at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 17:49:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [simpits-tech] 737-200 bell location
In-Reply-To: <1361295328.57703.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <209404509.1224114.1361296152959.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

..probably right next to the whistles.... 




Badumbump!! 




----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Messenger" <jjmessenger at yahoo.com> 
To: "Simpits Tech" <Simpits-tech at simpits.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 9:35:28 AM 
Subject: [simpits-tech] 737-200 bell location 



Anyone know where the bells are located in a 737-200? In a 707 they are under the S/O's table. I have no clue where they are hidden in the 737. 


Thanks. 
Justin 
_______________________________________________ 
Simpits-tech mailing list 
Simpits-tech at simpits.org 
http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech 
To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! 
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From Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com  Tue Feb 19 11:51:33 2013
From: Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com (Sean Galbraith)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 08:51:33 +1300
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <007e01ce0ebd$93129740$b937c5c0$@sbcglobal.net>
References: <mailman.173.1361240477.2531.simpits-tech@simpits.org>
	<1361243880.44575.YahooMailNeo@web140202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302190701310.3257@deltasoft.com>
	<1361289302.13026.YahooMailNeo@web140206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<007e01ce0ebd$93129740$b937c5c0$@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE917A4@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>

Or just go here:

I've bought most of my gear from them....

http://flighthelmet.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=FHL&Cate
gory_Code=PRGS

 

SeanG

 

From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org
[mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Joseph Fagner
Sent: Wednesday, 20 February 2013 5:24 a.m.
To: 'Justin Messenger'; 'Simulator Cockpit Builder's List'
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test

 

They don't make one that size for us yanks, no reason to since no one
that size would ever be cleared for flight anyways.

 

J

 

Show me a man who cannot be bothered to do the little things, and I will
show you a man who cannot be trusted to do the big ones.

--Lawrence Bell, Founder Bell Helicopter

From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org
[mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Justin Messenger
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 9:55 AM
To: Simpits Tech
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test

 

My extra large came from ebay. it was demilled (bladders cut) but I was
able to repair it and make it work. I also have a small g suit for the
little guys. now I need to find an xx large for the American sized
visitors :)

 

http://www.simadventure.com/ 

	 

	From: geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com>
	To: Justin Messenger <jjmessenger at yahoo.com>; Simulator Cockpit
Builder's List <simpits-tech at simpits.org> 
	Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 9:02 AM
	Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test

	
	On Mon, 18 Feb 2013, Justin Messenger wrote:
	
	> Oddly enough the canopy was one of the early things I
installed so I dont think about it much. Its just normal to have. The
first year it didnt have an air system so it had to be raised by hand.
Im so glad those days are over. That air system is what made it possible
to install the g suit last year. It taps into the canopy air supply. The
air
	
	Justin, I've actually got a NIB g-suit metering block for the
F-15 - any ideas where I can find a source of the g-suits?
	
	tnx.
	
	g.
	
	-- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
	http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
	http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
	Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
	
	ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
	A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
	http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

________________________________

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6112 - Release Date:
02/17/13

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From Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com  Tue Feb 19 11:53:05 2013
From: Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com (Sean Galbraith)
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 08:53:05 +1300
Subject: [simpits-tech] FSUIPC offsets
In-Reply-To: <1361295430.23442.YahooMailNeo@web140206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302190821120.6210@deltasoft.com>
	<74333961.1222489.1361293967459.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
	<1361295430.23442.YahooMailNeo@web140206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE917A5@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>

I know the guy who makes them.... and I use one in my sim (I helped
develop the things) and they are pretty cool.  Especially from a
"no-programming-required" perspective.

 

SeanG

 

From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org
[mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Justin Messenger
Sent: Wednesday, 20 February 2013 6:37 a.m.
To: raysot at comcast.net; Simpits Tech
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] FSUIPC offsets

 

The logic sounds a bit like PM systems. 

 

Justin

 

http://www.simadventure.com/ 

	 

	From: "raysot at comcast.net" <raysot at comcast.net>
	To: Simulator Cockpit Builder's List <simpits-tech at simpits.org> 
	Cc: Justin Messenger <jjmessenger at yahoo.com> 
	Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 11:12 AM
	Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] FSUIPC offsets

	 

	A rather expensive but working solution is the 64Output card
from Ruscool.

	 

	http://www.ruscool.co.nz/control_boards.html

	 

	I've been beta testing their 64-Out card and you can have up to
20 discreet FSUIPC 'events' trigger the Master Caution light. and/or
WARN lights. The card also supports 4 separate 'Cancel' functions.

	 

	It's not on the general market yet but if you tell them I sent
you, they may add you to their beta testing. (Card is $217.. For me,
worth the price cuz I aint getting any younger and I am pretty much done
with programming. Ever since I took that approach, my sim progress has
been lightning-quick)

	 

	 

	 

	 

	From: "geneb" <geneb at deltasoft.com>
	To: "Justin Messenger" <jjmessenger at yahoo.com>, "Simulator
Cockpit Builder's List" <simpits-tech at simpits.org>
	Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 8:21:59 AM
	Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] FSUIPC offsets
	
	On Tue, 19 Feb 2013, Justin Messenger wrote:
	
	> Im using an open cockpit usb outputs card and want to use it
for the 
	> master caution and low alt warning indicators with both FS9
and FSX. I 
	> take it there is no specific offset for Master Caution? I have
to 
	> program all of the Master Caution paramaters in my own script?
If so, 
	> that is a lot of extra work :/   It appears the 3424
LOW_HEIGHT_WARNING 
	> offset is not funtional? I see the 3428 DECISION_HEIGHT offset
but it is 
	> not clear to me how to write script from this to activate a
korry light. 
	> I assume this offset is actually used as an output going to
FSUIPC to 
	> adjust the decision hight  setting rather than an input coming
from 
	> FSUIPC.   My back up plan is to trigger the korry from a value
in the 
	> 31E4 4 Radio altitude in metres * 65536  offset. This of
course would be 
	> set in stone and not adjustable in flight.
	
	Justin, you might want to post a note in Peter Dowson's forum.
(don't 
	email him directly, he bites!)
	
	g.
	
	-- 
	Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
	http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
	http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
	Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
	
	ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
	A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
	http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
	_______________________________________________
	Simpits-tech mailing list
	Simpits-tech at simpits.org
	http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech
	To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the
above page.  Thanks!

	 

________________________________

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6112 - Release Date:
02/17/13

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From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Feb 19 13:45:23 2013
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 13:45:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] Expanded visual system test
In-Reply-To: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE917A4@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
References: <mailman.173.1361240477.2531.simpits-tech@simpits.org>
	<1361243880.44575.YahooMailNeo@web140202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302190701310.3257@deltasoft.com>
	<1361289302.13026.YahooMailNeo@web140206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<007e01ce0ebd$93129740$b937c5c0$@sbcglobal.net>
	<2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE917A4@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302191345080.13775@deltasoft.com>

On Wed, 20 Feb 2013, Sean Galbraith wrote:

> Or just go here:
>
> I've bought most of my gear from them....
>
> http://flighthelmet.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=FHL&Cate
> gory_Code=PRGS

I had completely forgotten about those guys.  Thanks!

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

From jjmessenger at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 24 21:57:51 2013
From: jjmessenger at yahoo.com (Justin Messenger)
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 21:57:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] More widescreen video
Message-ID: <1361771871.2278.YahooMailNeo@web140204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpNUe7G1ACI&feature=youtu.be
?
My right projector bulb seems to be going bad, its very dark. Darn used projector purchase! 
?
I included footage of the ADI before it died in pitch. So far no luck in getting a (working) replacement so Im back to using my simkits horizon :( I have a dead ADI that Im tempted to try I direct mechanical converion to pitch and roll. 
?
Im really considering setting up an overhead view. Just as soon as I strike it rich :) Sims consume money?like a high maintenence woman.
?
The landing at the end was interesting, trying to fly and run the throttles with the left while pointing the camcorder with my right. The footage is proof I can control the stick with my left hand. And on the first shot no less!

http://www.simadventure.com/?
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From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon Feb 25 10:07:02 2013
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 10:07:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] More widescreen video
In-Reply-To: <1361771871.2278.YahooMailNeo@web140204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1361771871.2278.YahooMailNeo@web140204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302250957580.12068@deltasoft.com>

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013, Justin Messenger wrote:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpNUe7G1ACI&feature=youtu.be
> 
> My right projector bulb seems to be going bad, its very dark. Darn used 
> projector purchase!
>
See, you should have talked to Brad first.  He pointed me at a great set 
of "refurbs". :)

> I included footage of the ADI before it died in pitch. So far no luck in 
> getting a (working) replacement so Im back to using my simkits horizon 
> :( I have a dead ADI that Im tempted to try I direct mechanical 
> converion to pitch and roll.
>
Have you checked to see if the synchros are still operating?

> Im really considering setting up an overhead view. Just as soon as I 
> strike it rich :) Sims consume money?like a high maintenence woman.
>
Women are cheaper. :)

> The landing at the end was interesting, trying to fly and run the 
> throttles with the left while pointing the camcorder with my right. The 
> footage is proof I can control the stick with my left hand. And on the 
> first shot no less!
\o/

Now that I _finally_ have a working furnace in the shop, I can get my butt 
back to work.  Rob has done an awesome job in cleaning up the cut edges on 
the new canopy.  I've got about a half hour of sanding to go on the 
replacement skin to get it to final shape, and I'll be able to get that 
drilled & installed back on the canopy.  That just reminded me to order 
the #10-32 nuts needed for the bottom row on the trim I'm replacing. :)

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

From jjmessenger at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 25 17:12:30 2013
From: jjmessenger at yahoo.com (Justin Messenger)
Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 17:12:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] More widescreen video
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302250957580.12068@deltasoft.com>
References: <1361771871.2278.YahooMailNeo@web140204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302250957580.12068@deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <1361841150.17132.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Gene, Truth be told, I still owe Brad $800 for the projectors :) The other projector did come with a brand new bulb so at least its good to go.
?
?
I have a saying about sim projects, first you have to get a proper facility, then you get the sim! But I break my rule and end up going in the reverse order.
?Justin
?


>  
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From Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com  Mon Feb 25 18:02:09 2013
From: Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com (Sean Galbraith)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 15:02:09 +1300
Subject: [simpits-tech] More widescreen video
In-Reply-To: <1361841150.17132.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1361771871.2278.YahooMailNeo@web140204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302250957580.12068@deltasoft.com>
	<1361841150.17132.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBE91847@PS-CH1.pacsim.local>

My problem is that I build a room for what I think the sim is going to
need, then the scope of the project changes, and the room doesn't fit
any more....  Simple solution would be to build a huge workshop, and put
a tiny sim right in the middle of it... but then, the chances of that
*actually* happening are?????

 

SeanG

 

From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org
[mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Justin Messenger
Sent: Tuesday, 26 February 2013 2:13 p.m.
To: geneb; Simulator Cockpit Builder's List
Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] More widescreen video

 

Gene, Truth be told, I still owe Brad $800 for the projectors :) The
other projector did come with a brand new bulb so at least its good to
go.

 

 

I have a saying about sim projects, first you have to get a proper
facility, then you get the sim! But I break my rule and end up going in
the reverse order.

 Justin

 

	 

	 

________________________________

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6132 - Release Date:
02/25/13

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From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue Feb 26 06:15:50 2013
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 06:15:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] More widescreen video
In-Reply-To: <1361841150.17132.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1361771871.2278.YahooMailNeo@web140204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.LFD.2.03.1302250957580.12068@deltasoft.com>
	<1361841150.17132.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1302260613000.28897@deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, Justin Messenger wrote:

> Gene, Truth be told, I still owe Brad $800 for the projectors :) The 
> other projector did come with a brand new bulb so at least its good to 
> go.
Ha!  Mine arrived yesterday, along with the new video card.  I need to get 
them unpacked and tested.  I would have gotten to it last night, but I was 
making a pile of F/A-18 HUD combiner glass panes. :)

I also discovered last night that my "repaired" furnace lasted all of 
about a day and a half.  I'm really getting annoyed about this - if I 
can't heat the shop, I can't paint.  If I can't paint, I can't finish 
those panels for Steve's F-15. :(

> I have a saying about sim projects, first you have to get a proper 
> facility, then you get the sim! But I break my rule and end up going in 
> the reverse order.

Don't we all? :)

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

From jjmessenger at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 27 20:40:37 2013
From: jjmessenger at yahoo.com (Justin Messenger)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 20:40:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [simpits-tech] 737-200 update
Message-ID: <1362026437.46448.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Here is a test I made today of the 737 flight director lights operating on FSX via SIOC script and FSUIPC offsets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCW0FrGmjMo&feature=youtu.be
?
Ive come to realize a couple?differences?between the -200 VS the NG. The first is no autothrottle. When the 737 got autothrottle it really change 737 flight procedures. The -200 has an independent Flight Director that could be placed in multiple?manual modes seperately from the auto pilot via an independant panel on the glareshield for hands on flying.? FSX/FSUIPC offsets and PM offsets do not model the?independant FD so I have to run the FD VOR and glideslope lights on the AP offsets. The big Flight Director mode that Im missing is the go around mode. 

Has anyone here put together a 737 motorized AP pitch trim system? I have a pitch trim motor that operates via two solenoids whenever the yoke trim buttons are depressed. I would love to find a way to use SIOC and the USB outputs card to trigger the solenoids via the autopilot but do not see FSUIPC offsets that I can use in SIOC for this function. Any suggestions?

Justi
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From dabigboy at cox.net  Wed Feb 27 20:57:28 2013
From: dabigboy at cox.net (dabigboy at cox.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 20:57:28 -0800
Subject: [simpits-tech] 737-200 update
In-Reply-To: <1362026437.46448.YahooMailNeo@web140203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20130228045728.4FU3F.432804.imail@eastrmwml214>

Is there a way with FSUIPC to override the commanded pitch trim setting coming from the autopilot (so that the autopilot does not actually adjust trim)? If so, you could intercept it with a plugin (or possibly an SIOC script) and read it, then run the trim motor until elevator trim is really close to that position. Oh the coolness that would be! :)

Matt

---- Justin Messenger <jjmessenger at yahoo.com> wrote: 
> Here is a test I made today of the 737 flight director lights operating on FSX via SIOC script and FSUIPC offsets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCW0FrGmjMo&feature=youtu.be
?
Ive come to realize a couple?differences?between the -200 VS the NG. The first is no autothrottle. When the 737 got autothrottle it really change 737 flight procedures. The -200 has an independent Flight Director that could be placed in multiple?manual modes seperately from the auto pilot via an independant panel on the glareshield for hands on flying.? FSX/FSUIPC offsets and PM offsets do not model the?independant FD so I have to run the FD VOR and glideslope lights on the AP offsets. The big Flight Director mode that Im missing is the go around mode. 

Has anyone here put together a 737 motorized AP pitch trim system? I have a pitch trim motor that operates via two solenoids whenever the yoke trim buttons are depressed. I would love to find a way to use SIOC and the USB outputs card to trigger the solenoids via the autopilot but do not see FSUIPC offsets that I can use in SIOC for this function. Any suggestions?

Justi