From jimsturs at xs4all.nl Sat Oct 1 02:31:15 2011 From: jimsturs at xs4all.nl (Jim Sturcbecher) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 11:31:15 +0200 Subject: [simpits-tech] Rotary Encoders for sale In-Reply-To: <2AEB70165F3B439BB82E63F064BDABEE@ritasiemensnb> References: <06CD55F82A814A30B74837E01D91320E@ritasiemensnb> <2AEB70165F3B439BB82E63F064BDABEE@ritasiemensnb> Message-ID: Hi all, just some additional info on the rotary encoders that I have listed on eBay. On an earlier post regarding Leo's BU036 and encoders, reference was made to the Sparkfun encoders: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9117 These are the same in function to mine except that the Sparkfun version has a plastic shaft instead of metal and the shaft length is insufficient to go through a 1mm mounting panel plus a 6mm light-plate and still be able to mount a knob, let alone have enough space left to be able to utilise the push-button. My listed version will allow all this to work without problems. I have used them myself on my B737-800 overhead on the pressurisation module. They also work great on the MCP. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Jim Sturcbecher Sent: 30 September 2011 22:29 To: 'Simulator Cockpit Builder's List' Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Rotary Encoders for sale That's OK Gene. I have updated the listing title for the more visually impaired amongst us. 8-) Jim -----Original Message----- From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Gene Buckle Sent: 30 September 2011 21:16 To: Simulator Cockpit Builder's List Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Rotary Encoders for sale On Fri, 30 Sep 2011, Jim Sturcbecher wrote: > Correct! > > $20.00 for a pack of five! = $4.00 each. > Thanks Jim. I'm apparently hard of reading today. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. _______________________________________________ Simpits-tech mailing list Simpits-tech at simpits.org http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! _______________________________________________ Simpits-tech mailing list Simpits-tech at simpits.org http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! From phoenixcomm at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 20:01:25 2011 From: phoenixcomm at gmail.com (Cris Harrison) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 22:01:25 -0500 Subject: [simpits-tech] Very funny... Message-ID: <4E892585.2090801@gmail.com> Holly Molly Batman, Look whats try to get off the ground yet a again. Yop, its our friend Pan American.... http://www.panamericanairways.net Well Golly we will believe it when we see it. Crazy Cris H. Phoenixcomm.wordpress.com www.phoenixaerospace.us www.flite-tronics.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/simpits-tech/attachments/20111002/251ac013/attachment.html From raysot at comcast.net Sun Oct 2 20:13:32 2011 From: raysot at comcast.net (Ray Sotkiewicz) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 20:13:32 -0700 Subject: [simpits-tech] Very funny... In-Reply-To: <4E892585.2090801@gmail.com> References: <4E892585.2090801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E89285C.4010302@comcast.net> ...is anyone even daring to fly into Mexico these days? On 10/2/2011 8:01 PM, Cris Harrison wrote: > Holly Molly Batman, > Look whats try to get off the ground yet a again. > Yop, its our friend Pan American.... http://www.panamericanairways.net > > Well Golly we will believe it when we see it. > Crazy > Cris H. > Phoenixcomm.wordpress.com > www.phoenixaerospace.us > www.flite-tronics.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Simpits-tech mailing list > Simpits-tech at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech > To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/simpits-tech/attachments/20111002/a2d189d5/attachment-0001.html From marcquintin at hotmail.com Mon Oct 3 16:28:32 2011 From: marcquintin at hotmail.com (Marc Quintin) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 19:28:32 -0400 Subject: [simpits-tech] Any members from California? Message-ID: Marc.. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/simpits-tech/attachments/20111003/0d48f6f0/attachment.html From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 5 07:58:50 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 07:58:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [simpits-tech] A-10C cockpit plans... Message-ID: I just posted the CNC-optimized drawings for Jedi's A-10C cockpit project up on the eagle.ru forums: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=78417 The download link is on page 7. Enjoy! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com Wed Oct 5 21:02:41 2011 From: Sean.Galbraith at pacificsimulators.com (Sean Galbraith) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 17:02:41 +1300 Subject: [simpits-tech] A-10C cockpit plans... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBD6F0FD@PS-CH1.pacsim.local> > > I just posted the CNC-optimized drawings for Jedi's A-10C cockpit project > up on the eagle.ru forums: > > http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=78417 > > The download link is on page 7. > > Enjoy! > Damn you! Now I *really* don't have an excuse not to build one! Just need to work out how I'll mount my old Cougar in it (too cheap to buy an A-10 setup.. nice as they are) SeanG From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 6 06:36:20 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 06:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [simpits-tech] A-10C cockpit plans... In-Reply-To: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBD6F0FD@PS-CH1.pacsim.local> References: <2FB39A1077E2CC48BD7ECF1A3C363FEBD6F0FD@PS-CH1.pacsim.local> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Sean Galbraith wrote: >> >> I just posted the CNC-optimized drawings for Jedi's A-10C cockpit > project >> up on the eagle.ru forums: >> >> http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=78417 >> >> The download link is on page 7. >> >> Enjoy! >> > > Damn you! Now I *really* don't have an excuse not to build one! Just > need to work out how I'll mount my old Cougar in it (too cheap to buy an > A-10 setup.. nice as they are) > *snickers* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From brian at sikkema.us Mon Oct 10 07:30:39 2011 From: brian at sikkema.us (Brian Sikkema) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 23:30:39 +0900 Subject: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to Message-ID: <4E93018F.6060602@sikkema.us> So I ordered that soldering iron Gene recommended. It's not here yet, but it should be soon. Anyway, I'm a butcher with a soldering iron, and I figured now that I'm getting some decent equipment I oughta learn how to do something other than glob solder all over everything and hope it works! lol. Does anyone have a good reference, preferably online, on learning to solder well? Or at least not embarrassingly bad? Brian From jimsturs at xs4all.nl Mon Oct 10 12:27:58 2011 From: jimsturs at xs4all.nl (Jim Sturcbecher) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 21:27:58 +0200 Subject: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to In-Reply-To: <4E93018F.6060602@sikkema.us> References: <4E93018F.6060602@sikkema.us> Message-ID: Have a quick look at this short video. Covers the basics and gives a good background as to why you do certain things in the soldering process. Here is the link: http://www.veoh.com/watch/v856147aJkKFNGA There is a short ad first. Have fun, Jim. -----Original Message----- From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Brian Sikkema Sent: 10 October 2011 16:31 To: Simulator Cockpit Builder's List Subject: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to So I ordered that soldering iron Gene recommended. It's not here yet, but it should be soon. Anyway, I'm a butcher with a soldering iron, and I figured now that I'm getting some decent equipment I oughta learn how to do something other than glob solder all over everything and hope it works! lol. Does anyone have a good reference, preferably online, on learning to solder well? Or at least not embarrassingly bad? Brian _______________________________________________ Simpits-tech mailing list Simpits-tech at simpits.org http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! From jimsturs at xs4all.nl Mon Oct 10 12:34:08 2011 From: jimsturs at xs4all.nl (Jim Sturcbecher) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 21:34:08 +0200 Subject: [simpits-tech] Rotary Encoders for sale In-Reply-To: References: <06CD55F82A814A30B74837E01D91320E@ritasiemensnb> Message-ID: <2F74D7F6C33E4C54B9296E156975F1E8@ritasiemensnb> I'm surprised that after the complaints about decoder prices, nobody was interested in the eBay listing. I have relisted the decoders that I have, and added the opportunity to make an offer on them. Here is the new link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250908248259&ssPageName=A DME:L:LCA:US:1123 Jim. -----Original Message----- From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Gene Buckle Sent: 30 September 2011 21:16 To: Simulator Cockpit Builder's List Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Rotary Encoders for sale On Fri, 30 Sep 2011, Jim Sturcbecher wrote: > Correct! > > $20.00 for a pack of five! = $4.00 each. > Thanks Jim. I'm apparently hard of reading today. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. _______________________________________________ Simpits-tech mailing list Simpits-tech at simpits.org http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! From raysot at comcast.net Mon Oct 10 12:45:30 2011 From: raysot at comcast.net (raysot at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 19:45:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [simpits-tech] Rotary Encoders for sale In-Reply-To: <2F74D7F6C33E4C54B9296E156975F1E8@ritasiemensnb> Message-ID: <599937960.265772.1318275930480.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I think that speaks to the broader issue that simming has basically come to a grinding halt in the US as financial priorities shift. :-( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Sturcbecher" To: "Simulator Cockpit Builder's List" Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 12:34:08 PM Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Rotary Encoders for sale I'm surprised that after the complaints about decoder prices, nobody was interested in the eBay listing. I have relisted the decoders that I have, and added the opportunity to make an offer on them. Here is the new link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250908248259&ssPageName=A DME:L:LCA:US:1123 Jim. -----Original Message----- From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Gene Buckle Sent: 30 September 2011 21:16 To: Simulator Cockpit Builder's List Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Rotary Encoders for sale On Fri, 30 Sep 2011, Jim Sturcbecher wrote: > Correct! > > $20.00 for a pack of five! = $4.00 each. > Thanks Jim. I'm apparently hard of reading today. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. _______________________________________________ Simpits-tech mailing list Simpits-tech at simpits.org http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! _______________________________________________ Simpits-tech mailing list Simpits-tech at simpits.org http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/simpits-tech/attachments/20111010/dc920a05/attachment.html From phoenixcomm at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 14:12:36 2011 From: phoenixcomm at gmail.com (Cris Harrison) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:12:36 -0500 Subject: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to In-Reply-To: <4E93018F.6060602@sikkema.us> References: <4E93018F.6060602@sikkema.us> Message-ID: <4E935FC4.4020709@gmail.com> On 10/10/2011 9:30 AM, Brian Sikkema wrote: > So I ordered that soldering iron Gene recommended. It's not here yet, > but it should be soon. > > Anyway, I'm a butcher with a soldering iron, and I figured now that I'm > getting some decent equipment I oughta learn how to do something other > than glob solder all over everything and hope it works! lol. Does anyone > have a good reference, preferably online, on learning to solder well? Or > at least not embarrassingly bad? > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Simpits-tech mailing list > Simpits-tech at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech > To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! > Brian, I have the soldering & wiring bibles for you.... you can find them both here: http://phoenixcomm.net/~phnx2000/sim/library.shtml "Soldered Electrical Connections - NASA-STD-8739-3" "Crimping, Interconnecting Cables, Harnesses, and Wiring. - NASA-STD-8739-4" I got my NASA rework cert when I worked for Hughes Aircraft in the 80's enjoy... remember only heat (melt) the solder indirectly, and always keep a damp sponge around to keep your iron clean, like after every joint. Also if you are soldering connectors (they are a real pain in the ass) a solder pot is a great investment, so that you can pre-tin your wires.. Keep you work clean, Enjoy Cris H. phoenixcomm.wordpress.com www.phoenixaerospace.us www.flite-tronics.com From phoenixcomm at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 14:24:49 2011 From: phoenixcomm at gmail.com (Cris Harrison) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:24:49 -0500 Subject: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to In-Reply-To: References: <4E93018F.6060602@sikkema.us> Message-ID: <4E9362A1.4060203@gmail.com> On 10/10/2011 2:27 PM, Jim Sturcbecher wrote: > Have a quick look at this short video. Covers the basics > and gives a good background as to why you do certain things > in the soldering process. Here is the link: > > http://www.veoh.com/watch/v856147aJkKFNGA > > There is a short ad first. > > Have fun, > Jim. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org > [mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Brian Sikkema > Sent: 10 October 2011 16:31 > To: Simulator Cockpit Builder's List > Subject: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to > > So I ordered that soldering iron Gene recommended. It's not here yet, > but it should be soon. > > Anyway, I'm a butcher with a soldering iron, and I figured now that I'm > getting some decent equipment I oughta learn how to do something other > than glob solder all over everything and hope it works! lol. Does anyone > have a good reference, preferably online, on learning to solder well? Or > at least not embarrassingly bad? > > Brian > _______________________________________________ > Simpits-tech mailing list > Simpits-tech at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech > To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. > Thanks! > > _______________________________________________ > Simpits-tech mailing list > Simpits-tech at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech > To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! > they go most of it right - but some things are flat out wrong. 1. cut your leads after your board is cooled - a min or two 2. hold your soldering iron at a much higher angle... like 60 degs. or about 30 deg from vertical. 3. most of what you will be soldering will use a conical or taper tip. if you need a chisel tip. then you are going to solder a much larger part... 4. get some solder wick for unsoldering 5. get a solder pull-it vac for unsoldering 6. say away from sandpaper it leave grit on things 7. get a 'pink' eraser its good for cleaning pcbs 8. if one pink eraser is good then two is better mounted in a U shaped spring steel (beryllium) is good for components. Cris H From jimsturs at xs4all.nl Mon Oct 10 15:48:28 2011 From: jimsturs at xs4all.nl (Jim Sturcbecher) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 00:48:28 +0200 Subject: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to In-Reply-To: <4E9362A1.4060203@gmail.com> References: <4E93018F.6060602@sikkema.us> <4E9362A1.4060203@gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree on the tools, bits and angles comments, Chris. The guys' technique does leave a bit to be desired. And yes, I also cut my leads after soldering with good quality angle nose cutters; but doing this will fail you on getting "Space-Qualified-Soldering" Certification. I posted this video link mostly as it gives a basic understanding as to "why" you solder with flux-cored solder and what cleaning and tinning is all about, etc. Most of the rest comes with practice. Main point is keeping everything clean and applying the iron and solder to the right points in the right order 'at and for' the right time. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Cris Harrison Sent: 10 October 2011 23:25 To: Simulator Cockpit Builder's List; brian at sikkema.us Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to On 10/10/2011 2:27 PM, Jim Sturcbecher wrote: > Have a quick look at this short video. Covers the basics > and gives a good background as to why you do certain things > in the soldering process. Here is the link: > > http://www.veoh.com/watch/v856147aJkKFNGA > > There is a short ad first. > > Have fun, > Jim. > > they go most of it right - but some things are flat out wrong. 1. cut your leads after your board is cooled - a min or two 2. hold your soldering iron at a much higher angle... like 60 degs. or about 30 deg from vertical. 3. most of what you will be soldering will use a conical or taper tip. if you need a chisel tip. then you are going to solder a much larger part... 4. get some solder wick for unsoldering 5. get a solder pull-it vac for unsoldering 6. say away from sandpaper it leave grit on things 7. get a 'pink' eraser its good for cleaning pcbs 8. if one pink eraser is good then two is better mounted in a U shaped spring steel (beryllium) is good for components. Cris H _______________________________________________ Simpits-tech mailing list Simpits-tech at simpits.org http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! From raysot at comcast.net Mon Oct 10 16:25:47 2011 From: raysot at comcast.net (raysot at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 23:25:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <25043134.276246.1318289147391.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> J????]z??????x????????%v???x y?.??p?????'q???X???x??y????????j???W(??'z{h?'???b?x?z{b~'?6?a?x0???????? h?{(???k?)?p?>?-???????wH ?,z???l??z????,??^N?z????? +??aj{(????x"??4?)? ?'?+hv+??????j???)?i?0j?l6?m??H???z?h??aj???(????x-??b??b???? .??b?^??^??'??(??b??%???j????????????_6?}t)????^?????Z?+??'b?????Z???v?^??$j???+z???jh?????????jZ-??azkh??]z?,?W^???????w?r(??^?)???z?azz????jwl?W^??^??^?W?u:?????????,}?l?:?i???^??\J?]z?ey?pj+Zn???M???(??,?W^??????????^j?,y??w???]z?????j?h?????.??7??(??a?x%?G???Fz??z?????n??~??????x2?????,z?u?n??+y?e??????h}?!j???)?~?^???}???? ???~??????x#??f?????b????wb???z?^?)????rW???l?)????(Z??"?\???r?.?????(????x"??????m????\?%??%y????"??????u??z?(????x-???????????~????-????p?Yl?????^??????z?^n??v???????]z???{lJ?]z????z?'???j?lN)???"????--??y?&?????zV???0z?kj{"??+?*%u?????w???b????e???^j??zk(????k+(?????l?W^?)?j?z??k)???hkY???b????'!???????????z?!y?R02???y?????z?y??~??z??:?^???rK?r*??+\j? From raysot at comcast.net Mon Oct 10 16:34:29 2011 From: raysot at comcast.net (raysot at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 23:34:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to In-Reply-To: <25043134.276246.1318289147391.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1099593228.276666.1318289669067.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Forgot to add: Cutting leads: I use Nippers. http://media.digikey.com/photos/Swanstrom%20Photos/S491E.jpg Reason being is that normal wire cutters have angled cutting surfaces on both sides of the cutting area.. This can translate into mechanical shock into the component. (Especially worrisome with germanium diodes) The ones shown have a flat outer cutting area with the cutting angle located on the inside surface, so the cutting shock is directed away from the component. ----- Original Message ----- From: raysot at comcast.net To: "Simulator Cockpit Builder's List" Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 4:25:47 PM Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to Some soldering techniques I use: The old saying "Measure twice, cut once" applies here... Make certain you have all component orientation identified.. Nothing worse than having to unsolder a 40-pin DIP to turn it around. IC's: Use sockets wherever possible. There's nothing worse than soldering in a 40-pin DIP only to discover you have it in backwards (Not... that I've ever done that......=) ICs: I soldering the pins like you would tighten the lug nuts on a tire.. Alternating patterns (Pins 1,8... 2,9... 3,10...) Keeps the heat relatively disbursed around the package Discrete components: If I have a lot of them to solder, I solder one lead on each, completing the set, then return and solder the other lead. Transistors/Mosfets/Triacs & Diodes, etc: Solder 1 lead, wait about 20-30 seconds, solder another lead, repeat.... Use as fine a soldering tip as possible (I use .03 or something like that) Get a metal scrub pad for cleaning your tip Use hard flux to really get the dirt off ( I have a tin of the stuff and it's great for cleaning.. just move the tip around inside the tin until clean) It's like really hard silly putty) Ground your soldering iron. Use rubbing alcohol to clean the circuit card after soldering to remove the flux. Left intact, the flux will start to deteriorate the board runs and solder joints. Soldering wires onto boards: "Tin" the wires first Large components: (Relays, power transistors...) Solder these in first... it gets all the big-heat items out of the way so your not soldering a huge relay next to a 1n914 diode which is rather sensitive to heat... SMD ICs: Make a mistake here and forget it. (Order a backup circuit card =) I have a few decades of experience under my soldering belt but SMDs.. unless you have the gear for it.. are really tricky.. They can be done, but it does take some practice. Speaking of SMDs.. get a shop magnifying lamp and a circuit card holder :-) Hope that helps! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Sturcbecher" To: "Simulator Cockpit Builder's List" Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 3:48:28 PM Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to I agree on the tools, bits and angles comments, Chris. The guys' technique does leave a bit to be desired. And yes, I also cut my leads after soldering with good quality angle nose cutters; but doing this will fail you on getting "Space-Qualified-Soldering" Certification. I posted this video link mostly as it gives a basic understanding as to "why" you solder with flux-cored solder and what cleaning and tinning is all about, etc. Most of the rest comes with practice. Main point is keeping everything clean and applying the iron and solder to the right points in the right order 'at and for' the right time. Jim. -----Original Message----- From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Cris Harrison Sent: 10 October 2011 23:25 To: Simulator Cockpit Builder's List; brian at sikkema.us Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to On 10/10/2011 2:27 PM, Jim Sturcbecher wrote: > Have a quick look at this short video. Covers the basics > and gives a good background as to why you do certain things > in the soldering process. Here is the link: > > http://www.veoh.com/watch/v856147aJkKFNGA > > There is a short ad first. > > Have fun, > Jim. > > they go most of it right - but some things are flat out wrong. 1. cut your leads after your board is cooled - a min or two 2. hold your soldering iron at a much higher angle... like 60 degs. or about 30 deg from vertical. 3. most of what you will be soldering will use a conical or taper tip. if you need a chisel tip. then you are going to solder a much larger part... 4. get some solder wick for unsoldering 5. get a solder pull-it vac for unsoldering 6. say away from sandpaper it leave grit on things 7. get a 'pink' eraser its good for cleaning pcbs 8. if one pink eraser is good then two is better mounted in a U shaped spring steel (beryllium) is good for components. Cris H _______________________________________________ Simpits-tech mailing list Simpits-tech at simpits.org http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! _______________________________________________ Simpits-tech mailing list Simpits-tech at simpits.org http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! _______________________________________________ Simpits-tech mailing list Simpits-tech at simpits.org http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/simpits-tech/attachments/20111010/e25cfb63/attachment-0001.html From raysot at comcast.net Mon Oct 10 16:48:12 2011 From: raysot at comcast.net (raysot at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 23:48:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to In-Reply-To: <1099593228.276666.1318289669067.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <106680515.277226.1318290492339.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> jwgz???)?z????aj}???(??(??(??'z{i?p'??^?w??X??W??'$??hr??y?Z?f???e????%jjm??^???"?^????^j?"?C???jS???xZ??????\?g????:?k?j?+ ?$?+A?)]z? ??l?jb??^r"??????I??2??k#?????]6?]x??? References: <106680515.277226.1318290492339.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4E93849B.9090401@sikkema.us> On 10/11/2011 8:48 AM, raysot at comcast.net wrote: > ...and never linger more than 2-4 seconds on a component pin :-) > > Another neat little trick is to connect a small alligator clamp to the > lead. It helps as a heat-sink. > > Thanks, guys! Lots of good tips. I will definitely be checking all of this out. Can't wait to throw my old Radio shack iron in the trash.... ;) Brian -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/simpits-tech/attachments/20111011/18c33b8d/attachment.html From raysot at comcast.net Mon Oct 10 16:55:46 2011 From: raysot at comcast.net (raysot at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 23:55:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to In-Reply-To: <4E93849B.9090401@sikkema.us> Message-ID: <1256556654.277527.1318290946302.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> ..and don't use that cheap Radio Shack Solder! Use the professional micro solder :-) I am sure to think of at least a dozen more by the time the night is over! =) Tip Cleaning Paste: http://www.frys.com/product/6011478?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG "Good" solder: http://www.frys.com/product/4455326?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG Wire Solder tip Cleaner http://www.frys.com/product/1563515?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Sikkema" To: "Simulator Cockpit Builder's List" Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 4:49:47 PM Subject: Re: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to On 10/11/2011 8:48 AM, raysot at comcast.net wrote: ...and never linger more than 2-4 seconds on a component pin :-) Another neat little trick is to connect a small alligator clamp to the lead. It helps as a heat-sink. Thanks, guys! Lots of good tips. I will definitely be checking all of this out. Can't wait to throw my old Radio shack iron in the trash.... ;) Brian _______________________________________________ Simpits-tech mailing list Simpits-tech at simpits.org http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/simpits-tech/attachments/20111010/3235af7b/attachment-0001.html From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 06:06:08 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 06:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to In-Reply-To: <1099593228.276666.1318289669067.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1099593228.276666.1318289669067.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Oct 2011, raysot at comcast.net wrote: > Forgot to add: Cutting leads: I use Nippers. > > > http://media.digikey.com/photos/Swanstrom%20Photos/S491E.jpg > > > Reason being is that normal wire cutters have angled cutting surfaces on both sides of the cutting area.. This can translate into mechanical shock into the component. (Especially worrisome with germanium diodes) > > > The ones shown have a flat outer cutting area with the cutting angle located on the inside surface, so the cutting shock is directed away from the component. Anyone have a source of _affordably_ priced wire strippers that use teflon blades? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From phoenixcomm at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 09:24:48 2011 From: phoenixcomm at gmail.com (Cris Harrison) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 11:24:48 -0500 Subject: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to In-Reply-To: References: <1099593228.276666.1318289669067.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4E946DD0.50702@gmail.com> On 10/11/2011 8:06 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Mon, 10 Oct 2011, raysot at comcast.net wrote: > >> Forgot to add: Cutting leads: I use Nippers. >> >> >> http://media.digikey.com/photos/Swanstrom%20Photos/S491E.jpg >> >> >> Reason being is that normal wire cutters have angled cutting surfaces on both sides of the cutting area.. This can translate into mechanical shock into the component. (Especially worrisome with germanium diodes) >> >> >> The ones shown have a flat outer cutting area with the cutting angle located on the inside surface, so the cutting shock is directed away from the component. > Anyone have a source of _affordably_ priced wire strippers that use teflon > blades? > > g Gene do you really mean a stripper that is used on Teflon covered wire?? if you do. then the only way is to use a thermal stripper... Teledyne Kinetics TW-1 or TWC-1 Stripall ebay:330526804141 Enjoy Cris H. phoenixcomm.wordpress.com www.phoenixaerospace.us www.flite-tronics.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/simpits-tech/attachments/20111011/1da6c7de/attachment.html From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 11 09:29:16 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to In-Reply-To: <4E946DD0.50702@gmail.com> References: <1099593228.276666.1318289669067.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4E946DD0.50702@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Cris Harrison wrote: > On 10/11/2011 8:06 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Mon, 10 Oct 2011, raysot at comcast.net wrote: >> >>> Forgot to add: Cutting leads: I use Nippers. >>> >>> >>> http://media.digikey.com/photos/Swanstrom%20Photos/S491E.jpg >>> >>> >>> Reason being is that normal wire cutters have angled cutting surfaces on >>> both sides of the cutting area.. This can translate into mechanical shock >>> into the component. (Especially worrisome with germanium diodes) >>> >>> >>> The ones shown have a flat outer cutting area with the cutting angle >>> located on the inside surface, so the cutting shock is directed away from >>> the component. >> Anyone have a source of _affordably_ priced wire strippers that use teflon >> blades? >> >> g > > Gene do you really mean a stripper that is used on Teflon covered wire?? > if you do. then the only way is to use a thermal stripper... > Teledyne Kinetics TW-1 or TWC-1 Stripall ebay:330526804141 Nope, I'm referring to strippers that have teflon or other non-metallic blades. They're used in military & aerospace applications. If you nick a wire, you have to throw it out. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From phoenixcomm at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 13:23:33 2011 From: phoenixcomm at gmail.com (Cris Harrison) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 15:23:33 -0500 Subject: [simpits-tech] Soldering how-to In-Reply-To: References: <1099593228.276666.1318289669067.JavaMail.root@sz0018a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4E946DD0.50702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E94A5C5.4040107@gmail.com> On 10/11/2011 11:29 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Cris Harrison wrote: > >> On 10/11/2011 8:06 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> On Mon, 10 Oct 2011, raysot at comcast.net wrote: >>> >>>> Forgot to add: Cutting leads: I use Nippers. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://media.digikey.com/photos/Swanstrom%20Photos/S491E.jpg >>>> >>>> >>>> Reason being is that normal wire cutters have angled cutting surfaces on >>>> both sides of the cutting area.. This can translate into mechanical shock >>>> into the component. (Especially worrisome with germanium diodes) >>>> >>>> >>>> The ones shown have a flat outer cutting area with the cutting angle >>>> located on the inside surface, so the cutting shock is directed away from >>>> the component. >>> Anyone have a source of _affordably_ priced wire strippers that use teflon >>> blades? >>> >>> g >> Gene do you really mean a stripper that is used on Teflon covered wire?? >> if you do. then the only way is to use a thermal stripper... >> Teledyne Kinetics TW-1 or TWC-1 Stripall ebay:330526804141 > Nope, I'm referring to strippers that have teflon or other non-metallic > blades. They're used in military& aerospace applications. If you nick a > wire, you have to throw it out. > > g. > > ok but let me know what you find ... I used to have NASA rework cert. BTW look on ebay for some great deals on EREM had tool (that what I use) Cris H phoenixcomm.wordpress.com www.phoenixaerospace.us www.flite-tronics.com From fsim at rwaltman.com Mon Oct 17 11:11:21 2011 From: fsim at rwaltman.com (Roberto Waltman) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:11:21 -0400 Subject: [simpits-tech] Barco's "immersive" dome. Message-ID: FYI, http://www.barco.com/en/product/2337/video http://boingboing.net/2011/10/12/new-immersive-360-degree-flight-simulator-for-fighter-jet-pilots-unveiled.html -- Roberto Waltman. From echotech1452 at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 11:16:43 2011 From: echotech1452 at gmail.com (delor lauchang) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:16:43 -0700 Subject: [simpits-tech] Barco's "immersive" dome. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Awesome!!!!! On Oct 17, 2011 11:11 AM, "Roberto Waltman" wrote: > > FYI, > > http://www.barco.com/en/product/2337/video > > > http://boingboing.net/2011/10/12/new-immersive-360-degree-flight-simulator-for-fighter-jet-pilots-unveiled.html > > -- > Roberto Waltman. > > _______________________________________________ > Simpits-tech mailing list > Simpits-tech at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech > To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above > page. Thanks! > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/simpits-tech/attachments/20111017/c7beb934/attachment.html From brian at sikkema.us Thu Oct 27 00:06:04 2011 From: brian at sikkema.us (Brian Sikkema) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:06:04 +0900 Subject: [simpits-tech] F-15 parts for you, Gene Message-ID: <4EA902DC.6060507@sikkema.us> Just need to make the trip to Nevada. http://www.lvrj.com/news/air-force-reports-fighter-jet-down-north-of-las-vegas-pilot-ejects-safely-132503378.html Brian From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 27 08:23:48 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 08:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [simpits-tech] F-15 parts for you, Gene In-Reply-To: <4EA902DC.6060507@sikkema.us> References: <4EA902DC.6060507@sikkema.us> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Brian Sikkema wrote: > Just need to make the trip to Nevada. > > http://www.lvrj.com/news/air-force-reports-fighter-jet-down-north-of-las-vegas-pilot-ejects-safely-132503378.html Very, very tiny bits. :) I wonder what happened.... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From bob at randrdevelopment.com Thu Oct 27 08:35:04 2011 From: bob at randrdevelopment.com (Robert Reed) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:35:04 -0400 Subject: [simpits-tech] F-15 parts for you, Gene In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Something broke.... (Bob runs ducking) lol On 10/27/11 11:23 AM, "Gene Buckle" wrote: >On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Brian Sikkema wrote: > >> Just need to make the trip to Nevada. >> >> >>http://www.lvrj.com/news/air-force-reports-fighter-jet-down-north-of-las- >>vegas-pilot-ejects-safely-132503378.html > >Very, very tiny bits. :) > >I wonder what happened.... > >g. > >-- >Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > >ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > >Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical >minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which >holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd >by the clean end. >_______________________________________________ >Simpits-tech mailing list >Simpits-tech at simpits.org >http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech >To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above >page. Thanks! > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 27 08:49:07 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 08:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [simpits-tech] F-15 parts for you, Gene In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Robert Reed wrote: > Something broke.... (Bob runs ducking) lol > > > > On 10/27/11 11:23 AM, "Gene Buckle" wrote: > >> On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Brian Sikkema wrote: >> >>> Just need to make the trip to Nevada. >>> >>> >>> http://www.lvrj.com/news/air-force-reports-fighter-jet-down-north-of-las- >>> vegas-pilot-ejects-safely-132503378.html >> >> Very, very tiny bits. :) >> >> I wonder what happened.... >> Well no kidding Capt. Obvious. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From stig.joergensen at clearsky.dk Fri Oct 28 06:08:18 2011 From: stig.joergensen at clearsky.dk (Stig Joergensen) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:08:18 +0200 Subject: [simpits-tech] sorry to say Message-ID: <062d01cc9572$ab0d07b0$01271710$@clearsky.dk> Flight sims are history: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg8Bh5iI2WY&feature=list_related&playnext=1&l ist=SPB677F19E577B8B63 i want one... /stig From crease-guard at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 28 07:13:03 2011 From: crease-guard at sbcglobal.net (Joseph Fagner) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 09:13:03 -0500 Subject: [simpits-tech] sorry to say In-Reply-To: <062d01cc9572$ab0d07b0$01271710$@clearsky.dk> References: <062d01cc9572$ab0d07b0$01271710$@clearsky.dk> Message-ID: <001c01cc957b$b536df50$1fa49df0$@sbcglobal.net> I had that idea years ago...glad to see someone finally put it into play. I thought it would be a great way to get your daily exercise. However, I never thought about using paintball guns to fire back at you...very nice touch. I want one too. Jay Show me a man who cannot be bothered to do the little things, and I will show you a man who cannot be trusted to do the big ones. --Lawrence Bell, Founder Bell Helicopter -----Original Message----- From: simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org [mailto:simpits-tech-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Stig Joergensen Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 8:08 AM To: 'Simulator Cockpit Builder's List' Subject: [simpits-tech] sorry to say Flight sims are history: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg8Bh5iI2WY&feature=list_related&playnext=1&l ist=SPB677F19E577B8B63 i want one... /stig _______________________________________________ Simpits-tech mailing list Simpits-tech at simpits.org http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/simpits-tech To unsubscribe, please see the instructions at the bottom of the above page. Thanks! ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1834 / Virus Database: 2092/4579 - Release Date: 10/27/11 From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 28 07:29:52 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 07:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [simpits-tech] sorry to say In-Reply-To: <062d01cc9572$ab0d07b0$01271710$@clearsky.dk> References: <062d01cc9572$ab0d07b0$01271710$@clearsky.dk> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Oct 2011, Stig Joergensen wrote: > Flight sims are history: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg8Bh5iI2WY&feature=list_related&playnext=1&l > ist=SPB677F19E577B8B63 > Battlefield 3 doesn't belong in the same sentence with "simulator". It's a neat looking game though. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.