From bromichaelhenry at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 14:09:14 2009 From: bromichaelhenry at gmail.com (Michael Henry) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 16:09:14 -0600 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] Hello Message-ID: Hello Is anyone still on this list? -- Bro. Michael Henry Associate Pastor Monticello Christian Church "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a self-centered religionist...He died so that you and I could stop living for ourselves, and start living for others. Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's coming to that place where we say 'Father, my life is not about me. It's about You.' " 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091101/6a5886ca/attachment.html From lyricalnanoha at usotsuki.hoshinet.org Sun Nov 1 14:20:39 2009 From: lyricalnanoha at usotsuki.hoshinet.org (lyricalnanoha) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 17:20:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] Hello In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 2009, Michael Henry wrote: > Hello > > Is anyone still on this list? Sure. -uso. From jce at seasip.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 1 14:26:26 2009 From: jce at seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 22:26:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] Hello In-Reply-To: from "Michael Henry" at Nov 01, 2009 04:09:14 Message-ID: > Is anyone still on this list? Yes. We're just not doing much :-) -- John Elliott From rob at midworld.co.uk Sun Nov 1 14:34:46 2009 From: rob at midworld.co.uk (rob at midworld.co.uk) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 22:34:46 +0000 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] Hello In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091101223445.GF17436@meurglys.midworld.co.uk> I am still here, but don't have much time to do GEM stuff at the moment... Rob On Sun, Nov 01, 2009 at 04:09:14PM -0600, Michael Henry wrote: > Hello > > Is anyone still on this list? > > -- > Bro. Michael Henry > Associate Pastor > Monticello Christian Church > > "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a self-centered religionist...He died > so that you and I could stop living for ourselves, and start living for > others. Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's coming to that > place where we say 'Father, my life is not about me. It's about You.' " > > 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, > that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev From owen at owenrudge.net Sun Nov 1 14:40:54 2009 From: owen at owenrudge.net (Owen Rudge) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 16:40:54 -0600 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] Hello In-Reply-To: <20091101223445.GF17436@meurglys.midworld.co.uk> References: <20091101223445.GF17436@meurglys.midworld.co.uk> Message-ID: <4AEE0E76.6070401@owenrudge.net> > I am still here, but don't have much time to do GEM stuff at the > moment... Likewise. Lots of things going on in life, but alas GEM isn't really one of them. Still, I'll always be keeping an eye open on gem-dev, maybe someday something interesting will happen. ;) Cheers, -- Owen Rudge http://www.owenrudge.net/ From bromichaelhenry at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 18:37:18 2009 From: bromichaelhenry at gmail.com (Michael Henry) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 20:37:18 -0600 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] Hello In-Reply-To: <4AEE0E76.6070401@owenrudge.net> References: <20091101223445.GF17436@meurglys.midworld.co.uk> <4AEE0E76.6070401@owenrudge.net> Message-ID: Well, I was going through the archives of this list today. Also, download OpenGEM 6 and was going to run it in DOSBox and play around with it. I used it years ago. Just thought I would say hi and thank the developers for this. -- Bro. Michael Henry Associate Pastor Monticello Christian Church "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a self-centered religionist...He died so that you and I could stop living for ourselves, and start living for others. Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's coming to that place where we say 'Father, my life is not about me. It's about You.' " 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091101/43987d95/attachment.html From goughsw at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 01:57:52 2009 From: goughsw at gmail.com (Shane Gough) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 19:57:52 +1000 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] Hello In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7da8e8830911020157l189e318en900e5c3711b9797d@mail.gmail.com> Well, I'm still reading it. There seems to be very little activity though. Regards, Shane On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Michael Henry wrote: > Hello > > Is anyone still on this list? > > -- > Bro. Michael Henry > Associate Pastor > Monticello Christian Church > > "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a self-centered religionist...He died > so that you and I could stop living for ourselves, and start living for > others. Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's coming to that > place where we say 'Father, my life is not about me. It's about You.' " > > 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, > that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." > > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091102/b84bdfa3/attachment.html From jem at archivalladolid.org Mon Nov 2 03:23:54 2009 From: jem at archivalladolid.org (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jos=E9_Emilio_Mori_Recio?=) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 12:23:54 +0100 Subject: [GEM Development] Hello Message-ID: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> I also keep on reading, but there are very few things to read. Unfortunately I've been waiting for almost a year for the GEM wiki, and then the backup wiki, to be fixed in order to access and work on it, but it seems there's no interest, even offering to do it myself. If things keep going this way and there's no help, I'm planning to eventually build a new wiki myself in our server, re-using (or not) some of the "GEM domains" which are almost unused now, if their owners agree. Time will tell. // Jos? Emilio Mori Recio - http://www.gui.uva.es/~jem \\ || Administrador Inform?tico, Arzobispado de Valladolid y Archivo || \\ Miembro 088 del Grupo Universitario de Inform?tica, Valladolid // From pspete1 at pnc.com.au Mon Nov 2 03:50:58 2009 From: pspete1 at pnc.com.au (Peter R Green) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:50:58 +1100 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] Hello In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AEEC7A2.4060209@pnc.com.au> Still alive... how are you all? Peter John Elliott wrote: >> Is anyone still on this list? >> > > Yes. We're just not doing much :-) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.423 / Virus Database: 270.14.43/2474 - Release Date: 11/01/09 07:38:00 > > From goughsw at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 04:47:18 2009 From: goughsw at gmail.com (Shane Gough) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:47:18 +1000 Subject: [GEM Development] Hello In-Reply-To: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> References: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> Message-ID: <7da8e8830911020447n1344743aq8e0642f7854a4f9e@mail.gmail.com> I have to admit being somewhat slack myself. I set up projects for a standard GEM API and a 32 bit implementation of that API on POSIX platforms on SourceForge (projects gemapi and gemix respectively). I had the idea that GEM would be an interesting UI for embedded or mobile devices (fairly simple and easy to extend is a good start, lightweight is perfect for embedded or mobile) and that a more 'modern' API (as in definitions and language representation - not the ABI) would be a good start. Unfortunately 'real life' intervened (as it does) and I'm left with half finished source code for experimental implementations for the moment. I do intend to get back to it, but I have no idea when. Shane On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Jos? Emilio Mori Recio < jem at archivalladolid.org> wrote: > I also keep on reading, but there are very few things to read. > Unfortunately > I've been waiting for almost a year for the GEM wiki, and then the backup > wiki, to be fixed in order to access and work on it, but it seems there's > no > interest, even offering to do it myself. If things keep going this way and > there's no help, I'm planning to eventually build a new wiki myself in our > server, re-using (or not) some of the "GEM domains" which are almost unused > now, if their owners agree. Time will tell. > > // Jos? Emilio Mori Recio - http://www.gui.uva.es/~jem \\ > || Administrador Inform?tico, Arzobispado de Valladolid y Archivo || > \\ Miembro 088 del Grupo Universitario de Inform?tica, Valladolid // > > > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091102/3ca359b7/attachment.html From bromichaelhenry at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 07:46:45 2009 From: bromichaelhenry at gmail.com (Michael Henry) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 09:46:45 -0600 Subject: [GEM Development] Hello In-Reply-To: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> References: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> Message-ID: Why don't you? Start emailing and I wouldn't mind helping with a wiki. Also, remember BeBits? Have a GEMbits with the wiki at wiki.Gembits.com and have a file repository for history's sake... I can't do the PHP and Joomla seems an overkill... On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 5:23 AM, Jos? Emilio Mori Recio < jem at archivalladolid.org> wrote: > I also keep on reading, but there are very few things to read. > Unfortunately > I've been waiting for almost a year for the GEM wiki, and then the backup > wiki, to be fixed in order to access and work on it, but it seems there's > no > interest, even offering to do it myself. If things keep going this way and > there's no help, I'm planning to eventually build a new wiki myself in our > server, re-using (or not) some of the "GEM domains" which are almost unused > now, if their owners agree. Time will tell. > > // Jos? Emilio Mori Recio - http://www.gui.uva.es/~jem \\ > || Administrador Inform?tico, Arzobispado de Valladolid y Archivo || > \\ Miembro 088 del Grupo Universitario de Inform?tica, Valladolid // > > > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > -- Bro. Michael Henry Associate Pastor Monticello Christian Church "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a self-centered religionist...He died so that you and I could stop living for ourselves, and start living for others. Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's coming to that place where we say 'Father, my life is not about me. It's about You.' " 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091102/b522f728/attachment-0001.html From bromichaelhenry at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 07:49:13 2009 From: bromichaelhenry at gmail.com (Michael Henry) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 09:49:13 -0600 Subject: [GEM Development] Hello In-Reply-To: <7da8e8830911020447n1344743aq8e0642f7854a4f9e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> <7da8e8830911020447n1344743aq8e0642f7854a4f9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That is a great idea....I wish I was a programmer, but GEM would be better on POSIX or *ix platforms that X and some of the Window Managers. I still don't like KDE 4.x. It has too many random crashes than 3.5, so GEM would be an improvement... On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 6:47 AM, Shane Gough wrote: > I have to admit being somewhat slack myself. > > I set up projects for a standard GEM API and a 32 bit implementation of > that API on POSIX platforms on SourceForge (projects gemapi and gemix > respectively). I had the idea that GEM would be an interesting UI for > embedded or mobile devices (fairly simple and easy to extend is a good > start, lightweight is perfect for embedded or mobile) and that a more > 'modern' API (as in definitions and language representation - not the ABI) > would be a good start. > > Unfortunately 'real life' intervened (as it does) and I'm left with half > finished source code for experimental implementations for the moment. I do > intend to get back to it, but I have no idea when. > > Shane > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Jos? Emilio Mori Recio < > jem at archivalladolid.org> wrote: > >> I also keep on reading, but there are very few things to read. >> Unfortunately >> I've been waiting for almost a year for the GEM wiki, and then the backup >> wiki, to be fixed in order to access and work on it, but it seems there's >> no >> interest, even offering to do it myself. If things keep going this way and >> there's no help, I'm planning to eventually build a new wiki myself in our >> server, re-using (or not) some of the "GEM domains" which are almost >> unused >> now, if their owners agree. Time will tell. >> >> // Jos? Emilio Mori Recio - http://www.gui.uva.es/~jem \\ >> || Administrador Inform?tico, Arzobispado de Valladolid y Archivo || >> \\ Miembro 088 del Grupo Universitario de Inform?tica, Valladolid // >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gem-dev mailing list >> gem-dev at simpits.org >> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev >> > > > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > > -- Bro. Michael Henry Associate Pastor Monticello Christian Church "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a self-centered religionist...He died so that you and I could stop living for ourselves, and start living for others. Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's coming to that place where we say 'Father, my life is not about me. It's about You.' " 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091102/e93dfc4c/attachment.html From lyricalnanoha at usotsuki.hoshinet.org Mon Nov 2 07:52:59 2009 From: lyricalnanoha at usotsuki.hoshinet.org (lyricalnanoha) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:52:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [GEM Development] Hello In-Reply-To: References: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> <7da8e8830911020447n1344743aq8e0642f7854a4f9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Michael Henry wrote: > That is a great idea....I wish I was a programmer, but GEM would be better > on POSIX or *ix platforms that X and some of the Window Managers. I still > don't like KDE 4.x. It has too many random crashes than 3.5, so GEM would be > an improvement... I was under the impression that DR had considered creating a GEM for Unix as well, though X Window beat it out. (My current wm of choice is fvwm.) -uso. From bromichaelhenry at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 08:19:44 2009 From: bromichaelhenry at gmail.com (Michael Henry) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:19:44 -0600 Subject: [GEM Development] Hello In-Reply-To: References: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> <7da8e8830911020447n1344743aq8e0642f7854a4f9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: x/gem I think was the name but I haven't been able to find a copy for years... On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:52 AM, lyricalnanoha < lyricalnanoha at usotsuki.hoshinet.org> wrote: > > > On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Michael Henry wrote: > > > That is a great idea....I wish I was a programmer, but GEM would be > better > > on POSIX or *ix platforms that X and some of the Window Managers. I still > > don't like KDE 4.x. It has too many random crashes than 3.5, so GEM would > be > > an improvement... > > I was under the impression that DR had considered creating a GEM for Unix > as well, though X Window beat it out. > > (My current wm of choice is fvwm.) > > -uso. > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > -- Bro. Michael Henry Associate Pastor Monticello Christian Church "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a self-centered religionist...He died so that you and I could stop living for ourselves, and start living for others. Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's coming to that place where we say 'Father, my life is not about me. It's about You.' " 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091102/cb58df84/attachment.html From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 2 09:00:14 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 17:00:14 +0000 Subject: [GEM Development] Hello In-Reply-To: References: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> <7da8e8830911020447n1344743aq8e0642f7854a4f9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0911020900y2b573686uc8acc242503a42bd@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 4:19 PM, Michael Henry wrote: > x/gem I think was the name but I haven't been able to find a copy for > years... I was going to say: it did happen, but was proprietary & both sources and binary are AWOL, missing presumed dead, years ago, alas. Seems a shame to reinvent the wheel but we may have to! I believe X/GEM ran on DR's own FlexOS, which was an RTOS based around Concurrent-DOS (i.e., Concurrent-CP/M). This chap apparently worked on it - may be worth asking him. Anyone more programming-literate want to volunteer or shall I do it? :?) http://www.tomingas.com/resume/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ben.jemmett at ukonline.co.uk Mon Nov 2 09:48:41 2009 From: ben.jemmett at ukonline.co.uk (Ben A L Jemmett) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 17:48:41 -0000 Subject: [GEM Development] Hello In-Reply-To: <575131af0911020900y2b573686uc8acc242503a42bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org><7da8e8830911020447n1344743aq8e0642f7854a4f9e@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0911020900y2b573686uc8acc242503a42bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6007148391804CCA91E790935F8EB562@JSD.jemmettsoftware.co.uk> Liam wrote: > I was going to say: it did happen, but was proprietary & both sources > and binary are AWOL, missing presumed dead, years ago, alas. As with so many things. *sigh* I was just thinking the other day, in fact, that it's a crying shame all the DR app source code was lost (warehouse flood in Monterey, from memory!) > This chap apparently worked on it - may be worth asking him. Anyone > more programming-literate want to volunteer or shall I do it? :?) > http://www.tomingas.com/resume/ Interesting; I didn't realise FlexOS had been FlexOS under DRI (if you see what I mean). This also caught my eye: : GEM ? Graphical UI Update designer I wonder when that was -- I can think of a few possibilities (minor changes in the GEM/1 to GEM/3 era; ViewMAX I, II and III; GEM/5?) but it'd be interesting to know what drove which changes when. Oh, and hello all; I've not quite disappeared yet! Although I have the motivation of a dead snail lately; that's pretty close. Regards, Ben A L Jemmett. http://flatpack.microwavepizza.co.uk/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 2 10:50:17 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:50:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [GEM Development] Hello In-Reply-To: <6007148391804CCA91E790935F8EB562@JSD.jemmettsoftware.co.uk> References: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org><7da8e8830911020447n1344743aq8e0642f7854a4f9e@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0911020900y2b573686uc8acc242503a42bd@mail.gmail.com> <6007148391804CCA91E790935F8EB562@JSD.jemmettsoftware.co.uk> Message-ID: > Oh, and hello all; I've not quite disappeared yet! Although I have the > motivation of a dead snail lately; that's pretty close. > *squeak* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From owen at owenrudge.net Mon Nov 2 15:49:53 2009 From: owen at owenrudge.net (Owen Rudge) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:49:53 -0600 Subject: [GEM Development] Hello In-Reply-To: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> References: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> Message-ID: <4AEF7021.5010709@owenrudge.net> > I also keep on reading, but there are very few things to read. Unfortunately > I've been waiting for almost a year for the GEM wiki, and then the backup > wiki, to be fixed in order to access and work on it, but it seems there's no > interest, even offering to do it myself. If things keep going this way and > there's no help, I'm planning to eventually build a new wiki myself in our > server, re-using (or not) some of the "GEM domains" which are almost unused > now, if their owners agree. Time will tell. Hmm. I seem to have unlocked the wiki, but apparently there are some problems with the database when trying to actually edit a page. I'll see what I can do to fix this. MediaWiki probably needs to be upgraded anyway for security reasons. -- Owen Rudge http://www.owenrudge.net/ From owen at owenrudge.net Mon Nov 2 15:51:35 2009 From: owen at owenrudge.net (Owen Rudge) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:51:35 -0600 Subject: [GEM Development] Hello In-Reply-To: References: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> Message-ID: <4AEF7087.6080602@owenrudge.net> > Why don't you? Start emailing and I wouldn't mind helping with a wiki. > Also, remember BeBits? Have a GEMbits with the wiki at wiki.Gembits.com > and have a file repository for history's > sake... I can't do the PHP and Joomla seems an overkill... Somewhat related: I took mirrors of a few GEM-related sites on GeoCities the other day (eg, Heinz Rath's site), before they were lost to eternity as well. I'll stick some links up on my web site when I have time. Cheers, -- Owen Rudge http://www.owenrudge.net/ From owen at owenrudge.net Mon Nov 2 16:18:24 2009 From: owen at owenrudge.net (Owen Rudge) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2009 18:18:24 -0600 Subject: [GEM Development] Hello In-Reply-To: <4AEF7021.5010709@owenrudge.net> References: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> <4AEF7021.5010709@owenrudge.net> Message-ID: <4AEF76D0.7000103@owenrudge.net> > Hmm. I seem to have unlocked the wiki, but apparently there are some > problems with the database when trying to actually edit a page. I'll see > what I can do to fix this. MediaWiki probably needs to be upgraded > anyway for security reasons. Well, even having upgraded to the latest version of MediaWiki and tweaking a couple of items in the database, things are still misbehaving. I might see if I can set up a new wiki and export the old data into the new one. But that'll probably have to wait for another day. I'll get it working properly eventually. ;) -- Owen Rudge http://www.owenrudge.net/ From topcatdrc at yahoo.com Tue Nov 3 09:38:35 2009 From: topcatdrc at yahoo.com (Thomas Clayton) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:38:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] Hello In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <148041.81112.qm@web82302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> What? You, AGAIN? ;-) I thought I just "saw" you on the GEOS-Talk list. I did. I did. :-D (A la, the "putty cat" and "tweety bird" cartoon.) Yeah. We're here! Welcome, brother ... er, Brother. ;-) Sincerely, Thomas Clayton BTW, did you ever get my inquiry about Borland C++ 5 book / disc from "that other" list? --- On Sun, 11/1/09, Michael Henry wrote: > From: Michael Henry > Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] Hello > To: gem-dev at simpits.org > Date: Sunday, November 1, 2009, 4:09 PM > Hello > > Is anyone still on this list? > > -- > Bro. Michael Henry > Associate Pastor > Monticello Christian Church > > "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a > self-centered religionist...He died so that you and I could > stop living for ourselves, and start living for others. > Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's > coming to that place where we say 'Father, my life is > not about me. It's about You.' " > > > 1 Timothy 1:15 ?"This is a faithful saying, and > worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the > world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > From bromichaelhenry at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 15:30:21 2009 From: bromichaelhenry at gmail.com (Michael Henry) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 17:30:21 -0600 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] Hello In-Reply-To: <148041.81112.qm@web82302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <148041.81112.qm@web82302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: LOL.. Well, I told Geos Talk that I loved older systems. Thats why I use eCS for most of my things. My GEM love came before GEOS as I bought 1st Word and it included a full GEM. Which led me to DR-DOS with Viewmax, which led me to Geoworks Ensemble which worked beautiful with DR-DOS. Which led to Win3.1 for the Internet and then all the "stuff" MS pulled for DR-DOS. I still remember pulling my patch for DR-DOS out of the mailbox just so Win3.1 would work. The "putty cat" and the "bird" rides again LOL Don't think I did? With all the traffic lately, it could have got lost... On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Thomas Clayton wrote: > What? You, AGAIN? ;-) > > I thought I just "saw" you on the GEOS-Talk list. I did. I did. > :-D (A la, the "putty cat" and "tweety bird" cartoon.) > > Yeah. We're here! Welcome, brother ... er, Brother. ;-) > > > Sincerely, > > Thomas Clayton > > BTW, did you ever get my inquiry about Borland C++ 5 book / disc from "that > other" list? > > > --- On Sun, 11/1/09, Michael Henry wrote: > > > From: Michael Henry > > Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] Hello > > To: gem-dev at simpits.org > > Date: Sunday, November 1, 2009, 4:09 PM > > Hello > > > > Is anyone still on this list? > > > > -- > > Bro. Michael Henry > > Associate Pastor > > Monticello Christian Church > > > > "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a > > self-centered religionist...He died so that you and I could > > stop living for ourselves, and start living for others. > > Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's > > coming to that place where we say 'Father, my life is > > not about me. It's about You.' " > > > > > > 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and > > worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the > > world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gem-dev mailing list > > gem-dev at simpits.org > > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > -- Bro. Michael Henry Associate Pastor Monticello Christian Church "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a self-centered religionist...He died so that you and I could stop living for ourselves, and start living for others. Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's coming to that place where we say 'Father, my life is not about me. It's about You.' " 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091103/25df9049/attachment.html From bromichaelhenry at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 00:03:21 2009 From: bromichaelhenry at gmail.com (Michael Henry) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 02:03:21 -0600 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 Message-ID: Shane mentioned a GEM 32. At what stage of development is it? Is it ready for Alpha Testing? and what features are planned for it? -- Bro. Michael Henry Associate Pastor Monticello Christian Church "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a self-centered religionist...He died so that you and I could stop living for ourselves, and start living for others. Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's coming to that place where we say 'Father, my life is not about me. It's about You.' " 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091104/414c51f7/attachment.html From topcatdrc at yahoo.com Wed Nov 4 17:11:28 2009 From: topcatdrc at yahoo.com (Thomas Clayton) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 17:11:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <236749.14583.qm@web82301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'd guess it's in our minds' eye, ONLY - at this point! Tom Clayton --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Michael Henry wrote: > From: Michael Henry > Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 > To: "GEM Development" > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 2:03 AM > Shane mentioned a GEM 32. At what stage of > development is it? Is it ready for Alpha Testing? and what > features are planned for it? > > -- > Bro. Michael Henry > Associate Pastor > Monticello Christian Church > > > "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a > self-centered religionist...He died so that you and I could > stop living for ourselves, and start living for others. > Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's > coming to that place where we say 'Father, my life is > not about me. It's about You.' " > > > 1 Timothy 1:15 ?"This is a faithful saying, and > worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the > world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > From goughsw at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 02:20:44 2009 From: goughsw at gmail.com (Shane Gough) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 20:20:44 +1000 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: <236749.14583.qm@web82301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <236749.14583.qm@web82301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7da8e8830911050220s22a771d0kd2202e64ad0e3c56@mail.gmail.com> Hi Tom, Pretty much - although I have some code snippets to prove (or disprove) various ideas. Certainly nothing that could be publicly released that would contribute anything. In my defence I will argue that many systems started out this way - the Linux kernel is a good example :P I am certainly not promising anything - if you read that from my emails I apologise. I'm simply interested in the idea, believe I have the skills to implement it and (it seems) others are interested as well. To me this is an interesting intellectual problem (and I'd rather be writing code than watching TV) - I don't get paid for this, it's never going to make me any money and it's a choice I make about how I choose to spend my spare time. Sorry to seem like I'm ranting but this is the only forum I get to discuss my ideas about this particular topic. It doesn't really matter if I do something about them or another reader does (or someone scanning the archives in a couple of years time). At this stage it is little more than an idea (in my minds eye as you say) and I've not presented it in any other way. Regards, Shane On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Thomas Clayton wrote: > I'd guess it's in our minds' eye, ONLY - at this point! > > Tom Clayton > > --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Michael Henry wrote: > > > From: Michael Henry > > Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 > > To: "GEM Development" > > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 2:03 AM > > Shane mentioned a GEM 32. At what stage of > > development is it? Is it ready for Alpha Testing? and what > > features are planned for it? > > > > -- > > Bro. Michael Henry > > Associate Pastor > > Monticello Christian Church > > > > > > "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a > > self-centered religionist...He died so that you and I could > > stop living for ourselves, and start living for others. > > Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's > > coming to that place where we say 'Father, my life is > > not about me. It's about You.' " > > > > > > 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and > > worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the > > world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gem-dev mailing list > > gem-dev at simpits.org > > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > > > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091105/51f69e7f/attachment-0001.html From eekee57 at fastmail.fm Thu Nov 5 09:50:12 2009 From: eekee57 at fastmail.fm (Ethan Grammatikidis) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:50:12 +0000 Subject: [GEM Development] Hello In-Reply-To: References: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> <7da8e8830911020447n1344743aq8e0642f7854a4f9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1257443412.8458.1343761363@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hallooo! I forget when I subscribed to this list, except I'm sure it was one of many times when I got really fed up with all available window managers and desktops. I quickly got distracted from GEM, hence never posted, and generally forgot about it until these "hellos". :) Lately I've been thinking about coding a window system similar to Plan 9's for my linux boxes, but Plan 9's window system doesn't offer half what GEM does. On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 09:49:13 -0600, "Michael Henry" said: > That is a great idea....I wish I was a programmer, but GEM would be > better > on POSIX or *ix platforms that X and some of the Window Managers. I still > don't like KDE 4.x. It has too many random crashes than 3.5, so GEM would > be > an improvement... > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 6:47 AM, Shane Gough wrote: > > > I have to admit being somewhat slack myself. > > > > I set up projects for a standard GEM API and a 32 bit implementation of > > that API on POSIX platforms on SourceForge (projects gemapi and gemix > > respectively). I had the idea that GEM would be an interesting UI for > > embedded or mobile devices (fairly simple and easy to extend is a good > > start, lightweight is perfect for embedded or mobile) and that a more > > 'modern' API (as in definitions and language representation - not the ABI) > > would be a good start. > > > > Unfortunately 'real life' intervened (as it does) and I'm left with half > > finished source code for experimental implementations for the moment. I do > > intend to get back to it, but I have no idea when. > > > > Shane > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Jos? Emilio Mori Recio < > > jem at archivalladolid.org> wrote: > > > >> I also keep on reading, but there are very few things to read. > >> Unfortunately > >> I've been waiting for almost a year for the GEM wiki, and then the backup > >> wiki, to be fixed in order to access and work on it, but it seems there's > >> no > >> interest, even offering to do it myself. If things keep going this way and > >> there's no help, I'm planning to eventually build a new wiki myself in our > >> server, re-using (or not) some of the "GEM domains" which are almost > >> unused > >> now, if their owners agree. Time will tell. > >> > >> // Jos? Emilio Mori Recio - http://www.gui.uva.es/~jem \\ > >> || Administrador Inform?tico, Arzobispado de Valladolid y Archivo || > >> \\ Miembro 088 del Grupo Universitario de Inform?tica, Valladolid // > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> gem-dev mailing list > >> gem-dev at simpits.org > >> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gem-dev mailing list > > gem-dev at simpits.org > > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > > > > > > > -- > Bro. Michael Henry > Associate Pastor > Monticello Christian Church > > "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a self-centered religionist...He > died > so that you and I could stop living for ourselves, and start living for > others. Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's coming to > that > place where we say 'Father, my life is not about me. It's about You.' " > > 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all > acceptation, > that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am > chief." From bromichaelhenry at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 10:19:48 2009 From: bromichaelhenry at gmail.com (Michael Henry) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 12:19:48 -0600 Subject: [GEM Development] Hello In-Reply-To: <1257443412.8458.1343761363@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> <7da8e8830911020447n1344743aq8e0642f7854a4f9e@mail.gmail.com> <1257443412.8458.1343761363@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: Cool, then please help shane and GEM32 for linux. Please. :D No seriously thou Hi, I am currently fed up with the too. They keep getting bigger and bigger sigh On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: > Hallooo! I forget when I subscribed to this list, except I'm sure it was > one of many times when I got really fed up with all available window > managers and desktops. I quickly got distracted from GEM, hence never > posted, and generally forgot about it until these "hellos". :) Lately > I've been thinking about coding a window system similar to Plan 9's for > my linux boxes, but Plan 9's window system doesn't offer half what GEM > does. > > On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 09:49:13 -0600, "Michael Henry" > said: > > That is a great idea....I wish I was a programmer, but GEM would be > > better > > on POSIX or *ix platforms that X and some of the Window Managers. I still > > don't like KDE 4.x. It has too many random crashes than 3.5, so GEM would > > be > > an improvement... > > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 6:47 AM, Shane Gough wrote: > > > > > I have to admit being somewhat slack myself. > > > > > > I set up projects for a standard GEM API and a 32 bit implementation of > > > that API on POSIX platforms on SourceForge (projects gemapi and gemix > > > respectively). I had the idea that GEM would be an interesting UI for > > > embedded or mobile devices (fairly simple and easy to extend is a good > > > start, lightweight is perfect for embedded or mobile) and that a more > > > 'modern' API (as in definitions and language representation - not the > ABI) > > > would be a good start. > > > > > > Unfortunately 'real life' intervened (as it does) and I'm left with > half > > > finished source code for experimental implementations for the moment. I > do > > > intend to get back to it, but I have no idea when. > > > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Jos? Emilio Mori Recio < > > > jem at archivalladolid.org> wrote: > > > > > >> I also keep on reading, but there are very few things to read. > > >> Unfortunately > > >> I've been waiting for almost a year for the GEM wiki, and then the > backup > > >> wiki, to be fixed in order to access and work on it, but it seems > there's > > >> no > > >> interest, even offering to do it myself. If things keep going this way > and > > >> there's no help, I'm planning to eventually build a new wiki myself in > our > > >> server, re-using (or not) some of the "GEM domains" which are almost > > >> unused > > >> now, if their owners agree. Time will tell. > > >> > > >> // Jos? Emilio Mori Recio - http://www.gui.uva.es/~jem > \\ > > >> || Administrador Inform?tico, Arzobispado de Valladolid y Archivo || > > >> \\ Miembro 088 del Grupo Universitario de Inform?tica, Valladolid // > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> gem-dev mailing list > > >> gem-dev at simpits.org > > >> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > > >> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gem-dev mailing list > > > gem-dev at simpits.org > > > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Bro. Michael Henry > > Associate Pastor > > Monticello Christian Church > > > > "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a self-centered religionist...He > > died > > so that you and I could stop living for ourselves, and start living for > > others. Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's coming to > > that > > place where we say 'Father, my life is not about me. It's about You.' " > > > > 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all > > acceptation, > > that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am > > chief." > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > -- Bro. Michael Henry Associate Pastor Monticello Christian Church "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a self-centered religionist...He died so that you and I could stop living for ourselves, and start living for others. Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's coming to that place where we say 'Father, my life is not about me. It's about You.' " 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091105/c20094e0/attachment.html From eekee57 at fastmail.fm Thu Nov 5 18:53:18 2009 From: eekee57 at fastmail.fm (Ethan Grammatikidis) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 02:53:18 +0000 Subject: [GEM Development] Hello In-Reply-To: References: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> <7da8e8830911020447n1344743aq8e0642f7854a4f9e@mail.gmail.com> <1257443412.8458.1343761363@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1257475998.18347.1343842023@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 12:19:48 -0600, "Michael Henry" said: > Cool, then please help shane and GEM32 for linux. Please. :D I will if it seems worth it. *smiles softly* The bloat in everyone's favourite open-source OS runs much deeper than the desktop and makes it unnecessarily hard to work with in some areas. The worst part of it is the number of people who seem to think nothing's wrong. For example, contrast the actions of Google engineers with the attitude of the blogger reporting them: http://laforge.gnumonks.org/weblog/2009/11/04/#20091104-android_mythbusters > > No seriously thou Hi, I am currently fed up with the too. They keep > getting > bigger and bigger sigh > > > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Ethan Grammatikidis > wrote: > > > Hallooo! I forget when I subscribed to this list, except I'm sure it was > > one of many times when I got really fed up with all available window > > managers and desktops. I quickly got distracted from GEM, hence never > > posted, and generally forgot about it until these "hellos". :) Lately > > I've been thinking about coding a window system similar to Plan 9's for > > my linux boxes, but Plan 9's window system doesn't offer half what GEM > > does. > > > > On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 09:49:13 -0600, "Michael Henry" > > said: > > > That is a great idea....I wish I was a programmer, but GEM would be > > > better > > > on POSIX or *ix platforms that X and some of the Window Managers. I still > > > don't like KDE 4.x. It has too many random crashes than 3.5, so GEM would > > > be > > > an improvement... > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 6:47 AM, Shane Gough wrote: > > > > > > > I have to admit being somewhat slack myself. > > > > > > > > I set up projects for a standard GEM API and a 32 bit implementation of > > > > that API on POSIX platforms on SourceForge (projects gemapi and gemix > > > > respectively). I had the idea that GEM would be an interesting UI for > > > > embedded or mobile devices (fairly simple and easy to extend is a good > > > > start, lightweight is perfect for embedded or mobile) and that a more > > > > 'modern' API (as in definitions and language representation - not the > > ABI) > > > > would be a good start. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately 'real life' intervened (as it does) and I'm left with > > half > > > > finished source code for experimental implementations for the moment. I > > do > > > > intend to get back to it, but I have no idea when. > > > > > > > > Shane > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Jos? Emilio Mori Recio < > > > > jem at archivalladolid.org> wrote: > > > > > > > >> I also keep on reading, but there are very few things to read. > > > >> Unfortunately > > > >> I've been waiting for almost a year for the GEM wiki, and then the > > backup > > > >> wiki, to be fixed in order to access and work on it, but it seems > > there's > > > >> no > > > >> interest, even offering to do it myself. If things keep going this way > > and > > > >> there's no help, I'm planning to eventually build a new wiki myself in > > our > > > >> server, re-using (or not) some of the "GEM domains" which are almost > > > >> unused > > > >> now, if their owners agree. Time will tell. > > > >> > > > >> // Jos? Emilio Mori Recio - http://www.gui.uva.es/~jem > > \\ > > > >> || Administrador Inform?tico, Arzobispado de Valladolid y Archivo || > > > >> \\ Miembro 088 del Grupo Universitario de Inform?tica, Valladolid // > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> gem-dev mailing list > > > >> gem-dev at simpits.org > > > >> http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > gem-dev mailing list > > > > gem-dev at simpits.org > > > > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Bro. Michael Henry > > > Associate Pastor > > > Monticello Christian Church > > > > > > "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a self-centered religionist...He > > > died > > > so that you and I could stop living for ourselves, and start living for > > > others. Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's coming to > > > that > > > place where we say 'Father, my life is not about me. It's about You.' " > > > > > > 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all > > > acceptation, > > > that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am > > > chief." > > _______________________________________________ > > gem-dev mailing list > > gem-dev at simpits.org > > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > > > > > > -- > Bro. Michael Henry > Associate Pastor > Monticello Christian Church > > "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a self-centered religionist...He > died > so that you and I could stop living for ourselves, and start living for > others. Courage is the highest expression of humility; it's coming to > that > place where we say 'Father, my life is not about me. It's about You.' " > > 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all > acceptation, > that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am > chief." From lyricalnanoha at usotsuki.hoshinet.org Thu Nov 5 18:59:00 2009 From: lyricalnanoha at usotsuki.hoshinet.org (lyricalnanoha) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 21:59:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: [GEM Development] Hello In-Reply-To: <1257475998.18347.1343842023@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20091102112420.346B9328015@ns2.simpits.org> <7da8e8830911020447n1344743aq8e0642f7854a4f9e@mail.gmail.com> <1257443412.8458.1343761363@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1257475998.18347.1343842023@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Nov 2009, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: > > On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 12:19:48 -0600, "Michael Henry" > said: >> Cool, then please help shane and GEM32 for linux. Please. :D > > I will if it seems worth it. *smiles softly* The bloat in everyone's > favourite open-source OS runs much deeper than the desktop and makes it > unnecessarily hard to work with in some areas. The worst part of it is > the number of people who seem to think nothing's wrong. For example, > contrast the actions of Google engineers with the attitude of the > blogger reporting them: > http://laforge.gnumonks.org/weblog/2009/11/04/#20091104-android_mythbusters There's always BSD... *hides* -uso. From topcatdrc at yahoo.com Sat Nov 7 01:15:57 2009 From: topcatdrc at yahoo.com (Thomas Clayton) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 01:15:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: <7da8e8830911050220s22a771d0kd2202e64ad0e3c56@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <896147.15787.qm@web82306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Shane, First and FOREMOST: I, in NO way meant ANY criticism of you. I hadn't noticed / realized Bro. Henry had mentioned you. If I had, I'd have written more for clarifications sake. You have made many good contributions. GEM development isn't - and shouldn't be - ALL on your shoulders. Second, I was thinking about US as a group. Yeah. There is 32-bit processor (an 80386? ;-) ) available (quite a few others, in fact, now :-) ) and wouldn't it be "neato" for GEM to run in a manner that took "full advantage" of it (those). As a starting point for the 32-bit dream, I'd recommend everyone look up "MMURTL". An individual, named Richard Burgess, wrote his own 32-bit OpSys back in the '90s. It - and its source code! - is (are) now available as 'public domain' Sw. In the early "00"'s, I went looking for the book I'd seen (he wrote about HOW he made his design decisions) and couldn't find it till HE re-published it, himself. ***If you find "copies" of the book (in PDF); they are NOT "Public Domain" but (quite correctly) copyrighted by Richard Burgess. He DESERVES the compensation / remuneration _for the book_. *** Paper-bound copies ARE available FROM him (last I knew). (I own one.) Still, in more practical matters, I like(d) your idea of "objectifying"(?) GEM 16-bit code. Sincerely, Thomas Clayton --- On Thu, 11/5/09, Shane Gough wrote: > From: Shane Gough > Subject: Re: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 > To: "GEM Development" > Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 4:20 AM > Hi Tom, > > Pretty much - although I have some code snippets to prove > (or disprove) various ideas. Certainly nothing that could be > publicly released that would contribute anything. > > In my defence I will argue that many systems started out > this way - the Linux kernel is a good example :P > > > I am certainly not promising anything - if you read that > from my emails I apologise. I'm simply interested in the > idea, believe I have the skills to implement it and (it > seems) others are interested as well. To me this is an > interesting intellectual problem (and I'd rather be > writing code than watching TV) - I don't get paid for > this, it's never going to make me any money and it's > a choice I make about how I choose to spend my spare time. > > > Sorry to seem like I'm ranting but this is the only > forum I get to discuss my ideas about this particular topic. > It doesn't really matter if I do something about them or > another reader does (or someone scanning the archives in a > couple of years time). At this stage it is little more than > an idea (in my minds eye as you say) and I've not > presented it in any other way. > > > Regards, > Shane > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 11:11 AM, > Thomas Clayton > wrote: > > I'd guess it's in our minds' eye, ONLY - at > this point! > > > > Tom Clayton > > > > --- On Wed, 11/4/09, Michael Henry > wrote: > > > > > From: Michael Henry > > > Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 > > > To: "GEM Development" > > > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2009, 2:03 AM > > > Shane mentioned a GEM > 32. At what stage of > > > development is it? Is it ready for Alpha Testing? and > what > > > features are planned for it? > > > > > > -- > > > Bro. Michael Henry > > > Associate Pastor > > > Monticello Christian Church > > > > > > > > > "Jesus Christ didn't die to make you a > > > self-centered religionist...He died so that you and I > could > > > stop living for ourselves, and start living for > others. > > > Courage is the highest expression of humility; > it's > > > coming to that place where we say 'Father, my life > is > > > not about me. It's about You.' " > > > > > > > > > 1 Timothy 1:15 ?"This is a faithful saying, and > > > worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into > the > > > world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." > > > > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > gem-dev mailing list > > > gem-dev at simpits.org > > > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gem-dev mailing list > > gem-dev at simpits.org > > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > From goughsw at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 07:33:03 2009 From: goughsw at gmail.com (Shane Gough) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 01:33:03 +1000 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: <896147.15787.qm@web82306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <7da8e8830911050220s22a771d0kd2202e64ad0e3c56@mail.gmail.com> <896147.15787.qm@web82306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7da8e8830911070733r6702c62aqe7ab324c30cdcac6@mail.gmail.com> Hi Thomas, I owe you an apology as well - I didn't mean to go off on rant like that. There seems to be a little confusion (mainly because of my name I guess) - I am NOT the same Shane that is responsible for ShaneLand OpenGEM. My net contribution to GEM (both commercial and open source) is limited to the posts I have made on this list. I have a handful of sample code I've written to test various ideas but none of it has ever been made public. So as you originally said all of this is in my minds eye - I just wanted to point out that I did not indicate anything else (the coincidence of my name and that of a major GEM contributor being the same has only just clicked). In terms of project I was not thinking of creating a new OS - my idea was to make a version of GEM that ran on a different OS (it already runs on two - DOS for IBM style machines and TOS for Atari's). The UI is not really tied to the underlying OS services (even Windows has a limited level of separation that can be replaced - that's how some 'skins' are implemented). Linux (or Unix based systems in general) are more flexible in that regard (and being open source - a lot easier to figure out how to do it). I did some research into the MMURTL stuff you mentioned (and it does look good - for anyone interested in implementing their own OS it would be a great start). The Linux kernel makes sense to me because there is hardware support for most of the devices I need as well as the underlying OS type stuff (threads, filesystems, networking, etc) so I can just concentrate on the UI stuff. The 'objectifying' stage was an idea to modernise GEM applications and ease porting. Basically if I could take existing code for a current application, convert it to use an OO framework and still have it work under 'classic' GEM then it should be a lot easier to convert that to a 32 bit version of GEM. There are a lot of assumptions in the GEM programs I have read through though - GEM Paint for example will crash if the active video mode is more thank 64K (in terms of width * height * bytes per pixel) - it assumes that 64K is the biggest chunk of memory that can be dealt with. A downside to many experienced GEM developers is that I would like to change the names of many functions (for example: The VDI function for 'Open Workstation' - op code #1 - would become vdiOpenWorkstation() as opposed to the recommended v_opnwk() - a lot easier to read and understand what it's doing).Most modern compilers (even the freebie ones available for DOS) are no longer limited to 8 character unique identifiers so there is no longer any need to truncate or abbreviate as much. As I am converting the function names I am also working on an automated translation script (using awk mostly) to help in the process if converting existing code. So - to progress on more realistic terms I've decided on the following: 1/ Develop a library (including header and implementation) for VDI using Turbo C++ 1.01 (available as a legal free download from http://edn.embarcadero.com/museum - was Borland, now sold off as a separate company). 2/ This library will use the 'modernised' function names. 3/ Develop a set of test applications that exercise all known functions in the VDI. The code and documentation for this library shall be available on the SourceForge site for the 'gemapi' project. Help at this stage will probably be best given as discussions and criticisms. If you would like to become part of the project please create a SourceForge account and contact me via that method. I have not set any time period for the project so please don't start holding your breath :) Once this is basically working I'll start work on the AES functions. After that - well, it depends on what everyone says. Regards, Shane On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Thomas Clayton wrote: > Shane, > > First and FOREMOST: I, in NO way meant ANY criticism of you. I hadn't > noticed / realized Bro. Henry had mentioned you. If I had, I'd have written > more for clarifications sake. You have made many good contributions. GEM > development isn't - and shouldn't be - ALL on your shoulders. > > Second, I was thinking about US as a group. Yeah. There is 32-bit processor > (an 80386? ;-) ) available (quite a few others, in fact, now :-) ) > and > wouldn't it be "neato" for GEM to run in a manner that took "full > advantage" of it (those). > > As a starting point for the 32-bit dream, I'd recommend everyone look up > "MMURTL". An individual, named Richard Burgess, wrote his own 32-bit OpSys > back in the '90s. It - and its source code! - is (are) now available as > 'public domain' Sw. > > In the early "00"'s, I went looking for the book I'd seen (he wrote about > HOW he made his design decisions) and couldn't find it till HE re-published > it, himself. ***If you find "copies" of the book (in PDF); they are NOT > "Public Domain" but (quite correctly) copyrighted by Richard Burgess. He > DESERVES the compensation / remuneration _for the book_. *** > Paper-bound copies ARE available FROM him (last I knew). (I own one.) > > > Still, in more practical matters, I like(d) your idea of "objectifying"(?) > GEM 16-bit code. > > > Sincerely, > > Thomas Clayton > > > --- On Thu, 11/5/09, Shane Gough wrote: > > > From: Shane Gough > > Subject: Re: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 > > To: "GEM Development" > > Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 4:20 AM > > Hi Tom, > > > > Pretty much - although I have some code snippets to prove > > (or disprove) various ideas. Certainly nothing that could be > > publicly released that would contribute anything. > > > > In my defence I will argue that many systems started out > > this way - the Linux kernel is a good example :P > > > > > > I am certainly not promising anything - if you read that > > from my emails I apologise. I'm simply interested in the > > idea, believe I have the skills to implement it and (it > > seems) others are interested as well. To me this is an > > interesting intellectual problem (and I'd rather be > > writing code than watching TV) - I don't get paid for > > this, it's never going to make me any money and it's > > a choice I make about how I choose to spend my spare time. > > > > > > Sorry to seem like I'm ranting but this is the only > > forum I get to discuss my ideas about this particular topic. > > It doesn't really matter if I do something about them or > > another reader does (or someone scanning the archives in a > > couple of years time). At this stage it is little more than > > an idea (in my minds eye as you say) and I've not > > presented it in any other way. > > > > > > Regards, > > Shane > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091108/4323ebd9/attachment.html From bromichaelhenry at gmail.com Sat Nov 7 17:29:21 2009 From: bromichaelhenry at gmail.com (Michael Henry) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 19:29:21 -0600 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: <7da8e8830911070733r6702c62aqe7ab324c30cdcac6@mail.gmail.com> References: <7da8e8830911050220s22a771d0kd2202e64ad0e3c56@mail.gmail.com> <896147.15787.qm@web82306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7da8e8830911070733r6702c62aqe7ab324c30cdcac6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi guys, I do want to apologize Shane because I did think the OpenGem was your project. Most of my ideas was that way. However, OpenGEM does provide a platform which is what's needed in any project. For instance if I wrote a program and the libraries it used was automatically included in OpenGEM, that makes it easier for consumers. It just burns me that even using apt-get, there could be some dependency issues. BTW, I have used PC-BSD on my laptop. That was a whole lot easier with their .pbi installers than using Linux. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 9:33 AM, Shane Gough wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > I owe you an apology as well - I didn't mean to go off on rant like that. > > There seems to be a little confusion (mainly because of my name I guess) - > I am NOT the same Shane that is responsible for ShaneLand OpenGEM. My net > contribution to GEM (both commercial and open source) is limited to the > posts I have made on this list. I have a handful of sample code I've written > to test various ideas but none of it has ever been made public. So as you > originally said all of this is in my minds eye - I just wanted to point out > that I did not indicate anything else (the coincidence of my name and that > of a major GEM contributor being the same has only just clicked). > > In terms of project I was not thinking of creating a new OS - my idea was > to make a version of GEM that ran on a different OS (it already runs on two > - DOS for IBM style machines and TOS for Atari's). The UI is not really tied > to the underlying OS services (even Windows has a limited level of > separation that can be replaced - that's how some 'skins' are implemented). > Linux (or Unix based systems in general) are more flexible in that regard > (and being open source - a lot easier to figure out how to do it). I did > some research into the MMURTL stuff you mentioned (and it does look good - > for anyone interested in implementing their own OS it would be a great > start). The Linux kernel makes sense to me because there is hardware support > for most of the devices I need as well as the underlying OS type stuff > (threads, filesystems, networking, etc) so I can just concentrate on the UI > stuff. > > The 'objectifying' stage was an idea to modernise GEM applications and ease > porting. Basically if I could take existing code for a current application, > convert it to use an OO framework and still have it work under 'classic' GEM > then it should be a lot easier to convert that to a 32 bit version of GEM. > There are a lot of assumptions in the GEM programs I have read through > though - GEM Paint for example will crash if the active video mode is more > thank 64K (in terms of width * height * bytes per pixel) - it assumes that > 64K is the biggest chunk of memory that can be dealt with. > > A downside to many experienced GEM developers is that I would like to > change the names of many functions (for example: The VDI function for 'Open > Workstation' - op code #1 - would become vdiOpenWorkstation() as opposed to > the recommended v_opnwk() - a lot easier to read and understand what it's > doing).Most modern compilers (even the freebie ones available for DOS) are > no longer limited to 8 character unique identifiers so there is no longer > any need to truncate or abbreviate as much. As I am converting the function > names I am also working on an automated translation script (using awk > mostly) to help in the process if converting existing code. > > So - to progress on more realistic terms I've decided on the following: > > 1/ Develop a library (including header and implementation) for VDI using > Turbo C++ 1.01 (available as a legal free download from > http://edn.embarcadero.com/museum - was Borland, now sold off as a > separate company). > 2/ This library will use the 'modernised' function names. > 3/ Develop a set of test applications that exercise all known functions in > the VDI. > > The code and documentation for this library shall be available on the > SourceForge site for the 'gemapi' project. Help at this stage will probably > be best given as discussions and criticisms. If you would like to become > part of the project please create a SourceForge account and contact me via > that method. I have not set any time period for the project so please don't > start holding your breath :) Once this is basically working I'll start work > on the AES functions. After that - well, it depends on what everyone says. > > Regards, > Shane > > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Thomas Clayton wrote: > >> Shane, >> >> First and FOREMOST: I, in NO way meant ANY criticism of you. I hadn't >> noticed / realized Bro. Henry had mentioned you. If I had, I'd have written >> more for clarifications sake. You have made many good contributions. GEM >> development isn't - and shouldn't be - ALL on your shoulders. >> >> Second, I was thinking about US as a group. Yeah. There is 32-bit >> processor (an 80386? ;-) ) available (quite a few others, in fact, now :-) >> ) >> and >> wouldn't it be "neato" for GEM to run in a manner that took "full >> advantage" of it (those). >> >> As a starting point for the 32-bit dream, I'd recommend everyone look up >> "MMURTL". An individual, named Richard Burgess, wrote his own 32-bit OpSys >> back in the '90s. It - and its source code! - is (are) now available as >> 'public domain' Sw. >> >> In the early "00"'s, I went looking for the book I'd seen (he wrote about >> HOW he made his design decisions) and couldn't find it till HE re-published >> it, himself. ***If you find "copies" of the book (in PDF); they are NOT >> "Public Domain" but (quite correctly) copyrighted by Richard Burgess. He >> DESERVES the compensation / remuneration _for the book_. *** >> Paper-bound copies ARE available FROM him (last I knew). (I own one.) >> >> >> Still, in more practical matters, I like(d) your idea of "objectifying"(?) >> GEM 16-bit code. >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Thomas Clayton >> >> >> --- On Thu, 11/5/09, Shane Gough wrote: >> >> > From: Shane Gough >> > Subject: Re: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 >> > To: "GEM Development" >> > Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 4:20 AM >> > Hi Tom, >> > >> > Pretty much - although I have some code snippets to prove >> > (or disprove) various ideas. Certainly nothing that could be >> > publicly released that would contribute anything. >> > >> > In my defence I will argue that many systems started out >> > this way - the Linux kernel is a good example :P >> > >> > >> > I am certainly not promising anything - if you read that >> > from my emails I apologise. I'm simply interested in the >> > idea, believe I have the skills to implement it and (it >> > seems) others are interested as well. To me this is an >> > interesting intellectual problem (and I'd rather be >> > writing code than watching TV) - I don't get paid for >> > this, it's never going to make me any money and it's >> > a choice I make about how I choose to spend my spare time. >> > >> > >> > Sorry to seem like I'm ranting but this is the only >> > forum I get to discuss my ideas about this particular topic. >> > It doesn't really matter if I do something about them or >> > another reader does (or someone scanning the archives in a >> > couple of years time). At this stage it is little more than >> > an idea (in my minds eye as you say) and I've not >> > presented it in any other way. >> > >> > >> > Regards, >> > Shane >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > > -- Bro. Michael Henry Associate Pastor Monticello Christian Church 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091107/b845fd08/attachment-0001.html From shane at shaneland.co.uk Sat Nov 7 20:57:12 2009 From: shane at shaneland.co.uk (Shane Martin Coughlan) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:57:12 +0900 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: References: <7da8e8830911050220s22a771d0kd2202e64ad0e3c56@mail.gmail.com> <896147.15787.qm@web82306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7da8e8830911070733r6702c62aqe7ab324c30cdcac6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1257656232.3584.4.camel@Opendawn1> On Sat, 2009-11-07 at 19:29 -0600, Michael Henry wrote: > I do want to apologize Shane because I did think the OpenGem was your > project. Most of my ideas was that way. > However, OpenGEM does provide a platform which is what's needed in any > project. For instance if I wrote a program and the libraries it used > was automatically included in OpenGEM, that makes it easier for > consumers. It just burns me that even using apt-get, there could be > some dependency issues. Hello all. Shane who made OpenGEM here. Well, I've not had enough time to contribute anything to GEM for a while. But here are my notes about what makes sense going forward. First of all, the basic GEM tools do make a useful platform. OpenGEM 6 focused on making that platform light and coherent, and making sure that the code available all had clear licensing (some of the older apps were GIVEN as GPL by Caldera, but the binary format was the only existing version left, so they need decompilation and reconstruction to make a useful source/binary distribution). A new release of the most current GEM tools in a platform format would be relatively simply. It was mostly done with the OpenGEM 7 distribution. I can put that together if everyone who makes the latest versions of the things sends me the desktop, gds(?) and so on. John, I guess most of this is on your site? Shane From dlormand at smalltimer.net Sat Nov 7 22:15:27 2009 From: dlormand at smalltimer.net (David Ormand) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 23:15:27 -0700 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 Message-ID: <4AF661FF.6080805@smalltimer.net> I have been thinking about this for some time also. My interest is maintaining GEM as _the_ GUI for DOS. Having GEM under Linux is fine, and a great alternative to X, but not if it moves it away from being useful under DOS. Now, seems to me if you move towards Linux, you are moving towards using GCC. We already have a GCC for DOS, namely, DJGPP. Seems to me the first step is "porting" GEM to compile using DJGPP. From what I've heard, this could be a bit of a challenge, since GEM/AES/VDI are kind of a "mixed bag". I've got the sources, but I haven't looked at them carefully. If GCC/DJGPP is too difficult, OpenWatcom can generate 32-bit code for both DOS and Linux. And Windows, like CygWin or MinGW. I don't think a 16-bit compiler like Borland is the right path to 32 bits. A public-domain OS like MMURTL is interesting, but we already have FreeDOS and Linux OSes (and BSDs), and anyways, it appears that MMURTL involves the use of yet another non-standard (and apparently non-free) compiler. Any of the old-timers, was there ever an attempt to "standardize" the build environment on something up-to-date or in common use? Seems the next step then is taking advantage of the native 32-bit video resources. Under Linux, there are the wide array of device drivers. Under DOS, there are various graphics libraries, such as GRX or MGRX, that already have DJGPP ports. I realize this hand-waving in ignorance is easy, but any project would have a better chance of success of attracting participants with a clear path and objective. I know I would enjoy participating! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091107/2f0136a5/attachment.html From pspete1 at pnc.com.au Sun Nov 8 03:44:04 2009 From: pspete1 at pnc.com.au (Peter R Green) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 22:44:04 +1100 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: <4AF661FF.6080805@smalltimer.net> References: <4AF661FF.6080805@smalltimer.net> Message-ID: <4AF6AF04.8080703@pnc.com.au> A couple of times in the past, I asked questions about what everyone saw as the purpose of GEM development: where should it go, and how might it best be used. I am not sure that we have made much progress along that path even now. This is not to denigrate the work that many of the more technical people have done to refine the current form of GEM, and make it more robust and consistent. I think it was 1992 when I first joined the group; Ben had just released a new desktop; Robert Avon had recently set up a website as a repository for everything Digital Research as had the chap from Scandinavia who died, and John was shovelling away in the GEM basement working on the underpinnings. GEM has come a long way, and OpenGEM has moved on quite a bit since I last looked in at Shane's work. But David's comments suggest that some of those basic philosophical questions still need to be addressed. Personally, I used GEM for a short while as a DOS front end on a '386 I was using mainly for experimental purposes, and then tried it out briefly in conjunction with Desqview-X before other projects took up my attention. I also used ViewMAX as a file manager in OS/2 for most of the time I used that OS. I was always happier with it than with OS/2's native file manager. But both uses are a long way in the past now... Peter David Ormand wrote: > I have been thinking about this for some time also. > > My interest is maintaining GEM as _the_ GUI for DOS. Having GEM under > Linux is fine, and a great alternative to X, but not if it moves it > away from being useful under DOS. > > Now, seems to me if you move towards Linux, you are moving towards > using GCC. We already have a GCC for DOS, namely, DJGPP. Seems to me > the first step is "porting" GEM to compile using DJGPP. From what > I've heard, this could be a bit of a challenge, since GEM/AES/VDI are > kind of a "mixed bag". I've got the sources, but I haven't looked at > them carefully. If GCC/DJGPP is too difficult, OpenWatcom can > generate 32-bit code for both DOS and Linux. And Windows, like CygWin > or MinGW. I don't think a 16-bit compiler like Borland is the right > path to 32 bits. > > A public-domain OS like MMURTL is interesting, but we already have > FreeDOS and Linux OSes (and BSDs), and anyways, it appears that MMURTL > involves the use of yet another non-standard (and apparently non-free) > compiler. > > Any of the old-timers, was there ever an attempt to "standardize" the > build environment on something up-to-date or in common use? > > Seems the next step then is taking advantage of the native 32-bit > video resources. Under Linux, there are the wide array of device > drivers. Under DOS, there are various graphics libraries, such as GRX > or MGRX, that already have DJGPP ports. > > I realize this hand-waving in ignorance is easy, but any project would > have a better chance of success of attracting participants with a > clear path and objective. I know I would enjoy participating! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 9.0.698 / Virus Database: 270.14.54/2488 - Release Date: 11/08/09 10:52:00 > > From ben.jemmett at ukonline.co.uk Sun Nov 8 04:05:23 2009 From: ben.jemmett at ukonline.co.uk (Ben A L Jemmett) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 12:05:23 +0000 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: <4AF661FF.6080805@smalltimer.net> References: <4AF661FF.6080805@smalltimer.net> Message-ID: <1257681923.4af6b403442a6@webmail.ukonline.net> Quoting David Ormand : > Any of the old-timers, was there ever an attempt to "standardize" the > build environment on something up-to-date or in common use? Yes, -ish, in that John moved things he worked on (the AES and Desktop, notably) to the Pacific C environment. I believe this alleviated a lot of the restrictions imposed by DRI's original build systems (a mixture of Lattice and Metaware compilers, plus their own MASM86 and LINK86 and maybe others!), although I could be wrong; it certainly led to 'cleaner' code, from memory. I tended to leave my versions of things in the original environment, mainly because I'm heavily nostalgia-driven *grin* (As an aside, I was reminded of Pacific C recently when engaging in a little tinkering on a PIC-based project; one of the highly-regarded C compilers for PIC microcontrollers is the Hi-Tech PICC compiler. It appears to be the same Hi-Tech as wrote Pacific; they've recently been bought by Microchip. Anyway.) With regards a 32-bit GEM, it seems to me that we need to think not only about the details of the platform itself but also applications. Done right, I'm sure we could continue to run existing 16-bit GEM applications; but they would still suffer from any limitations they currently have! For instance, GEM Paint would still end up with the incredible shrinking canvas, and since the object tree format is heavily baked in then we couldn't provide them with more than 16 colours in the UI, etc. Sources, sources, my kingdom for the sources! So, to take advantage of the 32-bitness we need new (versions of) applications -- I know there have been a few apps written for PC GEM in recent years, which is (I guess!) a good starting point. Perhaps we need to throw the question out there: what would people writing apps want changed in a 32-bit version? (It occurs to me, furthermore, that there is surely app development happening on Atari GEM too; can the two divergent platforms be reconciled in such a way that we'd be able to easily port any free/open code from Atari-land?) Right, that's Sunday morning coffee and pondering done with, back to trying to coax my new AS/400 into life... -- Regards, Ben A L Jemmett. http://flatpack.microwavepizza.co.uk/ ---------------------------------------------- This mail sent through http://www.ukonline.net From goughsw at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 03:05:52 2009 From: goughsw at gmail.com (Shane Gough) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:05:52 +1000 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: <4AF661FF.6080805@smalltimer.net> References: <4AF661FF.6080805@smalltimer.net> Message-ID: <7da8e8830911090305y7e2cadex2b73c124c012c5f7@mail.gmail.com> Well, this has certainly got discussion going at least :) @All Apologies for any confusion, I didn't get a choice in my name (in fact, it was very nearly Michael so I may have been confused with you Brother Michael rather than Shane of GEM fame :P). If it helps refer to me as ShaneG or ShaneNotGEM :) @David For portability support GCC/GAS is almost a must. Between them they cover almost all available OS's and platforms. DJGPP comes with a DOS extender (is it GO32 or something similar? I don't recall off the top of my head). In any case, support for DJGPP will restrict the PC processor to a 386 or better - maintaining support for previous processors (at the VDI/AES level at least) would be difficult. This would mean a new implementation of VDI and AES that is fully 32 bit and protected mode aware. You could use 'thunking' (the way WIN32 was supported on Win31) but it would add a lot of complexity which would be better to avoid. How would existing (binary only) GEM applications run on top of this? As for video support - on DOS the VESA interface would probably be easiest (there are third party TSR's that provide additional support for Non-VESA or Minimal-VESA cards). On Linux the standard Framebuffer interface would work reasonably well. As I mentioned in an earlier email - 2D accelleration would be up to the VESA implementation and 3D accelleration would be non-existant. @Ben I was wondering about the Atari GEM implementation as well. Ideally it should be supported as part of any standard API (from the documents I have read there is little functional difference between the TOS/DOS implementations of the GEM API). I don't know enough about it to say how easy it would be to port applications from Atari GEM to other GEM - from what I gather the TOS API is not exactly POSIX like (neither is DOS for that matter). Is there the equivelant of GCC (and it's standard C library) for TOS? If that's the case it should simplify things (excluding those applications that make explicit use of Atari only hardware functions). I haven't found a reasonable Atari emulator and development tools to do any testing on yet (I haven't looked that hard either though). I do have an Atari 520ST stashed away in the cupboard though - apart from playing a couple of games on it I haven't done much else. @Peter GEM (specifically OpenGEM) as it stands is great on legacy PC hardware (which is becoming more difficult to find). It's fun for those who are interested in nostalgia when running on DosBOX or something similar. But as a day to day platform for any purpose it is not really much use (yes, I know there are web browsers, news readers etc available - a lot of people have done a lot of work). But is GEM of any use in the long run on non-PC (or non-Atari) hardware? I work with embedded hardware (both commercially and for fun) and there are times when I would like a nice simple UI to plug in which doesn't have a large memory or disk footprint, is simple to program and provides a reasonably pretty interface - I think GEM would fulfill that goal. @All Anyway - as I have stated previously I have created the 'gemapi' and 'gemix' projects on SourceForge. I'm happy to hand over control of the 'gemapi' project to those with more of a history (and more experience) with GEM. I intend to continue with the 'gemix' project as a 'GEM like' (at the very least) implementation of the GEM API for the Linux kernel (initially, ideally it should work on any POSIX compliant system that someone can provide a VDI implementation for). SourceForge does provide for webspace as well so maybe the 'gemapi' project would be a reasonable place for a documentation Wiki and other developer style information? What does everyone think? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091109/34030e46/attachment-0001.html From shane at shaneland.co.uk Mon Nov 9 03:48:14 2009 From: shane at shaneland.co.uk (Shane Martin Coughlan) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:48:14 +0900 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: <7da8e8830911090305y7e2cadex2b73c124c012c5f7@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AF661FF.6080805@smalltimer.net> <7da8e8830911090305y7e2cadex2b73c124c012c5f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1257767295.2124.74.camel@Opendawn1> Hi Shane > Anyway - as I have stated previously I have created the 'gemapi' and > 'gemix' projects on SourceForge. I'm happy to hand over control of the > 'gemapi' project to those with more of a history (and more experience) > with GEM. I intend to continue with the 'gemix' project as a 'GEM > like' (at the very least) implementation of the GEM API for the Linux > kernel (initially, ideally it should work on any POSIX compliant > system that someone can provide a VDI implementation for). SourceForge > does provide for webspace as well so maybe the 'gemapi' project would > be a reasonable place for a documentation Wiki and other developer > style information? Could the two projects be combined into one codebase that is not platform dependent, allows backward compatibility (when running on x86) and potentially also allows Atari platform tools to work? I think a starting point for you is probably to have a chat with John. He has done a lot of the work to modernize GEM. His site is here: http://www.seasip.info/Gem/index.html Regards Shane From lyricalnanoha at usotsuki.hoshinet.org Mon Nov 9 04:00:30 2009 From: lyricalnanoha at usotsuki.hoshinet.org (lyricalnanoha) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 07:00:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: <7da8e8830911090305y7e2cadex2b73c124c012c5f7@mail.gmail.com> References: <4AF661FF.6080805@smalltimer.net> <7da8e8830911090305y7e2cadex2b73c124c012c5f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Nov 2009, Shane Gough wrote: > For portability support GCC/GAS is almost a must. Between them they cover > almost all available OS's and platforms. DJGPP comes with a DOS extender (is > it GO32 or something similar? I don't recall off the top of my head). go32, yeah. > In any case, support for DJGPP will restrict the PC processor to a 386 > or better - maintaining support for previous processors (at the VDI/AES > level at least) would be difficult. This would mean a new implementation > of VDI and AES that is fully 32 bit and protected mode aware. You could > use 'thunking' (the way WIN32 was supported on Win31) but it would add a > lot of complexity which would be better to avoid. How would existing > (binary only) GEM applications run on top of this? Thunking the other way, like win95? > I was wondering about the Atari GEM implementation as well. Ideally it > should be supported as part of any standard API (from the documents I have > read there is little functional difference between the TOS/DOS > implementations of the GEM API). I don't know enough about it to say how > easy it would be to port applications from Atari GEM to other GEM - from > what I gather the TOS API is not exactly POSIX like (neither is DOS for that > matter). Is there the equivelant of GCC (and it's standard C library) for > TOS? I have a GCC 3.3.3 crosscompiler that produces TOS binaries. Meant for MiNT, but I've run the binaries on Emutos. -uso. From goughsw at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 05:20:22 2009 From: goughsw at gmail.com (Shane Gough) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 23:20:22 +1000 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: References: <4AF661FF.6080805@smalltimer.net> <7da8e8830911090305y7e2cadex2b73c124c012c5f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7da8e8830911090520q5cf6dd42obd45dc3205e98635@mail.gmail.com> > > Thunking the other way, like win95? > > I think Win 3.x with Win32s thunked 32 bit calls to 16 bit calls and on Win95 it thunked 16 bit calls to 32 bit calls. It depended on the underlying implementation - 16 bit or 32 bit. Either way - complexity. I think this is why OS/X was more stable than Win32 (95, XP, NT and the like). OS/X provided a complete emulator for pre-OS/X applications (On x86 platforms there was a PowerPC emulator for OS/X apps). I have a GCC 3.3.3 crosscompiler that produces TOS binaries. Meant for > MiNT, but I've run the binaries on Emutos. > > I think support for GCC 3.4 would be preferable but if it is compatible with with GCC 3.2 or greater you have an implementation of almost all of the C99 and C++ 2.0 standards. I'll have to check docs to confirm that though. As I said I don't have a lot of experience with GEM/TOS on Atari. It would be the better version to port though (already flat memory model and 32 bit aware on the 68K based hardware). The Atari versions of AES and the desktop (or their open source replacements) would be a lot easier to convert to a 32 bit flat memory model PC based system. The source for PC based GEM I've looked at has a *lot* of assembly in it - is that the case for Atari GEM? > -uso. > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091109/05dce487/attachment.html From goughsw at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 05:46:51 2009 From: goughsw at gmail.com (Shane Gough) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 23:46:51 +1000 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: <1257767295.2124.74.camel@Opendawn1> References: <4AF661FF.6080805@smalltimer.net> <7da8e8830911090305y7e2cadex2b73c124c012c5f7@mail.gmail.com> <1257767295.2124.74.camel@Opendawn1> Message-ID: <7da8e8830911090546n3bceab6axe39a7dafc1b6fdf2@mail.gmail.com> Hi Shane (that sounds weird), The reason I decided to make two separate projects was because the API should provide an application interface only (which should be - in a perfect world - compatible with all implementations of GEM). The idea is that you could download the gemapi project and use it to develop applications for DR GEM, OpenGEM, Atari GEM, GEMix, whatever. The restriction being that the API only covered VDI and AES calls - OS specific stuff would be up to the developer. I also considered adding a third set of calls to the API for common operations that are not supported by the existing GEM interface - like common access to configuration files (like the Windows xxxProfileString() functions) - this would require a POSIX based OS (or compatibility library) though. The 'gemix' project was purely an implementation of VDI, AES and the Desktop for Linux. It would contribute code to the API project (as a binding that could be used) but the API project would not depend on it. I think the two projects are aiming for different goals - the first (gemapi) is aiming for a common API for all GEM implementations. The second is an implementation of the GEM API for a new platform. I've looked at the Seasip site before (I originally came across it because I was making a port of Manic Miner - my favourite game on my first computer, the ZX Spectrum - and he had some details of map formats etc). Once again it seems Intel/DOS specific. Other sites I've come across seem Atari/TOS specific. It would be nice to have a generic GEM interface that could be used by all source (and would ease porting between the various implementations). Regards, ShaneG On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Shane Martin Coughlan wrote: > Hi Shane > > > Anyway - as I have stated previously I have created the 'gemapi' and > > 'gemix' projects on SourceForge. I'm happy to hand over control of the > > 'gemapi' project to those with more of a history (and more experience) > > with GEM. I intend to continue with the 'gemix' project as a 'GEM > > like' (at the very least) implementation of the GEM API for the Linux > > kernel (initially, ideally it should work on any POSIX compliant > > system that someone can provide a VDI implementation for). SourceForge > > does provide for webspace as well so maybe the 'gemapi' project would > > be a reasonable place for a documentation Wiki and other developer > > style information? > > Could the two projects be combined into one codebase that is not > platform dependent, allows backward compatibility (when running on x86) > and potentially also allows Atari platform tools to work? > > I think a starting point for you is probably to have a chat with John. > He has done a lot of the work to modernize GEM. His site is here: > http://www.seasip.info/Gem/index.html > > Regards > > Shane > > > > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091109/b926a866/attachment.html From topcatdrc at yahoo.com Mon Nov 9 08:42:53 2009 From: topcatdrc at yahoo.com (Thomas Clayton) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 08:42:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: <7da8e8830911070733r6702c62aqe7ab324c30cdcac6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <232075.6724.qm@web82301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> AEEeeehh! (faint) Oh. There ARE _TWO_ Shanes on this list. (very embarrassed emoticon). I'd write more but i) I need to recover and ii) it's going to be 70ish (here in Chicago this Sat.) SO I'm getting OUT! Tom C --- On Sat, 11/7/09, Shane Gough wrote: > From: Shane Gough > Subject: Re: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 > To: "GEM Development" > Date: Saturday, November 7, 2009, 9:33 AM > Hi Thomas, > > I owe you an apology as well - I didn't mean to go off > on rant like that. > > There seems to be a little confusion (mainly because of my > name I guess) - I am NOT the same Shane that is responsible > for ShaneLand OpenGEM. My net contribution to GEM (both > commercial and open source) is limited to the posts I have > made on this list. I have a handful of sample code I've > written to test various ideas but none of it has ever been > made public. So as you originally said all of this is in my > minds eye - I just wanted to point out that I did not > indicate anything else (the coincidence of my name and that > of a major GEM contributor being the same has only just > clicked). > > > In terms of project I was not thinking of creating a new OS > - my idea was to make a version of GEM that ran on a > different OS (it already runs on two - DOS for IBM style > machines and TOS for Atari's). The UI is not really tied > to the underlying OS services (even Windows has a limited > level of separation that can be replaced - that's how > some 'skins' are implemented). Linux (or Unix based > systems in general) are more flexible in that regard (and > being open source - a lot easier to figure out how to do > it). I did some research into the MMURTL stuff you mentioned > (and it does look good - for anyone interested in > implementing their own OS it would be a great start). The > Linux kernel makes sense to me because there is hardware > support for most of the devices I need as well as the > underlying OS type stuff (threads, filesystems, networking, > etc) so I can just concentrate on the UI stuff. > > > The 'objectifying' stage was an idea to modernise > GEM applications and ease porting. Basically if I could take > existing code for a current application, convert it to use > an OO framework and still have it work under > 'classic' GEM then it should be a lot easier to > convert that to a 32 bit version of GEM. There are a lot of > assumptions in the GEM programs I have read through though - > GEM Paint for example will crash if the active video mode is > more thank 64K (in terms of width * height * bytes per > pixel) - it assumes that 64K is the biggest chunk of memory > that can be dealt with. > > > A downside to many experienced GEM developers is that I > would like to change the names of many functions (for > example: The VDI function for 'Open Workstation' - > op code #1 - would become vdiOpenWorkstation() as opposed to > the recommended v_opnwk() - a lot easier to read and > understand what it's doing).Most modern compilers (even > the freebie ones available for DOS) are no longer limited to > 8 character unique identifiers so there is no longer any > need to truncate or abbreviate as much. As I am converting > the function names I am also working on an automated > translation script (using awk mostly) to help in the process > if converting existing code. > > > So - to progress on more realistic terms I've decided > on the following: > > 1/ Develop a library (including header and implementation) > for VDI using Turbo C++ 1.01 (available as a legal free > download from http://edn.embarcadero.com/museum > - was Borland, now sold off as a separate company). > > 2/ This library will use the 'modernised' function > names. > 3/ Develop a set of test applications that exercise all > known functions in the VDI. > > The code and documentation for this library shall be > available on the SourceForge site for the 'gemapi' > project. Help at this stage will probably be best given as > discussions and criticisms. If you would like to become part > of the project please create a SourceForge account and > contact me via that method. I have not set any time period > for the project so please don't start holding your > breath :) Once this is basically working I'll start work > on the AES functions. After that - well, it depends on what > everyone says. > > > Regards, > Shane > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:15 PM, > Thomas Clayton > wrote: > > Shane, > > > > First and FOREMOST: I, in NO way meant ANY criticism of > you. I hadn't noticed / realized Bro. Henry had > mentioned you. If I had, I'd have written more for > clarifications sake. You have made many good contributions. > GEM development isn't ?- and shouldn't be - ALL on > your shoulders. > > > > > Second, I was thinking about US as a group. Yeah. There is > 32-bit processor (an 80386? ;-) ?) available (quite a few > others, in fact, now ?:-) ?) > > ?and > > wouldn't it be "neato" for GEM to run in a > manner that took "full advantage" of it (those). > > > > As a starting point for the 32-bit dream, I'd recommend > everyone look up "MMURTL". An individual, named > Richard Burgess, wrote his own 32-bit OpSys back in the > '90s. It - and its source code! - is (are) now available > as 'public domain' Sw. > > > > > In the early "00"'s, I went looking for the > book I'd seen (he wrote about HOW he made his design > decisions) and couldn't find it till HE re-published it, > himself. ***If you find "copies" of the book (in > PDF); they are NOT "Public Domain" but (quite > correctly) copyrighted by Richard Burgess. He DESERVES the > compensation / remuneration _for the book_. *** > > > Paper-bound copies ARE available FROM him (last I knew). (I > own one.) > > > > > > Still, in more practical matters, I like(d) your idea of > "objectifying"(?) GEM 16-bit code. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Thomas Clayton > > > > > > --- On Thu, 11/5/09, Shane Gough > wrote: > > > > > From: Shane Gough > > > Subject: Re: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 > > > To: "GEM Development" > > > Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 4:20 AM > > > Hi Tom, > > > > > > Pretty much - although I have some code snippets to > prove > > > (or disprove) various ideas. Certainly nothing that > could be > > > publicly released that would contribute anything. > > > > > > In my defence I will argue that many systems started > out > > > this way - the Linux kernel is a good example :P > > > > > > > > > I am certainly not promising anything - if you read > that > > > from my emails I apologise. I'm simply interested > in the > > > idea, believe I have the skills to implement it and > (it > > > seems) others are interested as well. To me this is > an > > > interesting intellectual problem (and I'd rather > be > > > writing code than watching TV) - I don't get paid > for > > > this, it's never going to make me any money and > it's > > > a choice I make about how I choose to spend my spare > time. > > > > > > > > > Sorry to seem like I'm ranting but this is the > only > > > forum I get to discuss my ideas about this particular > topic. > > > It doesn't really matter if I do something about > them or > > > another reader does (or someone scanning the archives > in a > > > couple of years time). At this stage it is little more > than > > > an idea (in my minds eye as you say) and I've not > > > presented it in any other way. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Shane > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > From jce at seasip.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 9 13:02:04 2009 From: jce at seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 21:02:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: <1257767295.2124.74.camel@Opendawn1> from "Shane Martin Coughlan" at Nov 09, 2009 08:48:14 Message-ID: > I think a starting point for you is probably to have a chat with John. > He has done a lot of the work to modernize GEM. His site is here: > http://www.seasip.info/Gem/index.html You rrrrang, milord? For what it's worth, I did get the AES building in DJGPP some years ago. I emphasise 'building' rather than 'running' -- it turned out the 16->32 bit transitions somewhere in the DPMI host or the libraries weren't re-entrant, which put something of a spanner in the works. If anyone wants to write a proper 32-bit PC-GEM, they'll have to consider: * What kernel it's hosted on -- DOS, Linux, something else? * Memory protection. The AES thinks it _is_ the kernel and can see into the memory of all the applications running under it. If you want to get this working on a proper multitasking OS, you'll have to come up with some way round this -- either using shared memory, or marshalling object trees to and fro. (If the latter, the 16<-->32 marshalling code in my DJGPP bindings may help you). * How are drivers implemented? The current ones are all 16-bit asm jobs. -- John Elliott From topcatdrc at yahoo.com Tue Nov 10 12:08:24 2009 From: topcatdrc at yahoo.com (Thomas Clayton) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:08:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <145775.90890.qm@web82304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear All: Of course, ALL this PRESUMES you're using x86 32-bit chips. There are alternatives. PowerPC. ARM. None of the existing ones do I know well enough to recommend. :-( Then there's that one I dreamed up some years ago ... and it's STILL just a dream. :-( Haay, what the heck. Let's just "go for" 64-bits. :-0 (In)sincerely, Thomas Clayton --- On Mon, 11/9/09, John Elliott wrote: > From: John Elliott > Subject: Re: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 > To: gem-dev at simpits.org > Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 3:02 PM > > I think a starting point for you > is probably to have a chat with John. > > He has done a lot of the work to modernize GEM.? > His site is here: > > http://www.seasip.info/Gem/index.html > > ? You rrrrang, milord? > > ? For what it's worth, I did get the AES building in > DJGPP some years ago. I > emphasise 'building' rather than 'running' -- it turned out > the 16->32 bit > transitions somewhere in the DPMI host or the libraries > weren't re-entrant, > which put something of a spanner in the works. > > ? If anyone wants to write a proper 32-bit PC-GEM, > they'll have to consider: > > * What kernel it's hosted on -- DOS, Linux, something > else? > > * Memory protection. The AES thinks it _is_ the kernel and > can see into the > memory of all the applications running under it. If you > want to get this > working on a proper multitasking OS, you'll have to come > up with some way > round this -- either using shared memory, or marshalling > object trees to > and fro. (If the latter, the 16<-->32 marshalling > code in my DJGPP bindings > may help you). > > * How are drivers implemented? The current ones are all > 16-bit asm jobs. > > -- > John Elliott > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > From bromichaelhenry at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 12:49:31 2009 From: bromichaelhenry at gmail.com (Michael Henry) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:49:31 -0600 Subject: [GEM Development] [GEM-DEV] GEM 32 In-Reply-To: References: <1257767295.2124.74.camel@Opendawn1> Message-ID: Kernel: Multiplatform (DOS, Maybe Windows, Linux, TOS (EMUTOS), embedded systems, and for me OS/2 :D). Basically whatever GCC runs on. Drivers: How about a HAL like in NT,2K etc. The HAL could take care of system calls of whatever platform it was on. Atari: Atari users have done a lot to modernize GEM and VDS, et all. See what we can use to bring/merge GEM into one multiplatform GUI. To be honest, I don't think there was a true multiplatform (GUI GEM 1.x and maybe GEOS but not really that multiplatform). AES: Look at how XaAES is done. See how they overcome the kernel part and run AtariGEM apps. Just me two cents, Feel free to ignore or ridicule :D On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 3:02 PM, John Elliott wrote: > > I think a starting point for you is probably to have a chat with John. > > He has done a lot of the work to modernize GEM. His site is here: > > http://www.seasip.info/Gem/index.html > > You rrrrang, milord? > > For what it's worth, I did get the AES building in DJGPP some years ago. I > emphasise 'building' rather than 'running' -- it turned out the 16->32 bit > transitions somewhere in the DPMI host or the libraries weren't re-entrant, > which put something of a spanner in the works. > > If anyone wants to write a proper 32-bit PC-GEM, they'll have to consider: > > * What kernel it's hosted on -- DOS, Linux, something else? > > * Memory protection. The AES thinks it _is_ the kernel and can see into the > memory of all the applications running under it. If you want to get this > working on a proper multitasking OS, you'll have to come up with some way > round this -- either using shared memory, or marshalling object trees to > and fro. (If the latter, the 16<-->32 marshalling code in my DJGPP > bindings > may help you). > > * How are drivers implemented? The current ones are all 16-bit asm jobs. > > -- > John Elliott > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > -- Bro. Michael Henry Associate Pastor Monticello Christian Church 1 Timothy 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091110/7d7ea293/attachment.html From goughsw at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 03:41:37 2009 From: goughsw at gmail.com (Shane Gough) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:41:37 +1000 Subject: [GEM Development] Looking for some details Message-ID: <7da8e8830911120341t7059e8dk1229fcdbfae13ccd@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I'm trying to build a definitive list of all VDI and AES functions (and escapes) across the two main versions of GEM (Atari and PC). Ideally this would include information about platform specific functions and what versions introduced or modified functions. I currently have a collection of information from various sites (the result of a set of google searches). Are there any reference books or other documentation (released by DR, Atari or others) that I should be looking for? Thanks, ShaneG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091112/fa001f37/attachment.html From ben.jemmett at ukonline.co.uk Thu Nov 12 04:10:44 2009 From: ben.jemmett at ukonline.co.uk (Ben A L Jemmett) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:10:44 -0000 Subject: [GEM Development] Looking for some details In-Reply-To: <7da8e8830911120341t7059e8dk1229fcdbfae13ccd@mail.gmail.com> References: <7da8e8830911120341t7059e8dk1229fcdbfae13ccd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5B0422B2E0594721801D1B77322D5A4C@JSD.jemmettsoftware.co.uk> Hi Shane, OCRed copies of DRI's original reference works -- the GEM Programmer's Toolkit -- can be had from http://www.deltasoft.com/dev-gw.htm #docs in two volumes. I think they're from the GEM/1 era; I'm not sure if any later editions were ever published, to be honest! You've probably already found John's documentation at http://www.seasip.info/Gem/vdi.html and http://www.seasip.info/Gem/aes.html which includes notes on functions that differ between GEM versions, including features he's added to the FreeGEM AES. I think between the two sources, these should cover pretty much everything there is to know about the PC GEM side of things! Regards, Ben A L Jemmett. http://flatpack.microwavepizza.co.uk/ _____ From: gem-dev-bounces at simpits.org [mailto:gem-dev-bounces at simpits.org] On Behalf Of Shane Gough Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 11:42 AM To: GEM Development Subject: [GEM Development] Looking for some details Hi all, I'm trying to build a definitive list of all VDI and AES functions (and escapes) across the two main versions of GEM (Atari and PC). Ideally this would include information about platform specific functions and what versions introduced or modified functions. I currently have a collection of information from various sites (the result of a set of google searches). Are there any reference books or other documentation (released by DR, Atari or others) that I should be looking for? Thanks, ShaneG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091112/1958d53d/attachment.html From goughsw at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 04:46:20 2009 From: goughsw at gmail.com (Shane Gough) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:46:20 +1000 Subject: [GEM Development] Looking for some details In-Reply-To: <5B0422B2E0594721801D1B77322D5A4C@JSD.jemmettsoftware.co.uk> References: <7da8e8830911120341t7059e8dk1229fcdbfae13ccd@mail.gmail.com> <5B0422B2E0594721801D1B77322D5A4C@JSD.jemmettsoftware.co.uk> Message-ID: <7da8e8830911120446i237826ft7440276508a732d2@mail.gmail.com> Hi Ben, Thanks for that. I had already found the information from seasip - I was wondering if there was any more 'official' type of documentation - particularly for the ST. As part of my research I came across thisand this - excellent insight into the development process but it makes me wonder how different the 'standard' GEM API was between the two classes of machines. That site is excellent by the way - especially if you are interested in what was happening behind the scenes with the developers. Regards, ShaneG On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:10 PM, Ben A L Jemmett < ben.jemmett at ukonline.co.uk> wrote: > Hi Shane, > > OCRed copies of DRI's original reference works -- the GEM Programmer's > Toolkit -- can be had from http://www.deltasoft.com/dev-gw.htm#docs in two > volumes. I think they're from the GEM/1 era; I'm not sure if any later > editions were ever published, to be honest! > > You've probably already found John's documentation at > http://www.seasip.info/Gem/vdi.html and > http://www.seasip.info/Gem/aes.html which includes notes on functions that > differ between GEM versions, including features he's added to the FreeGEM > AES. I think between the two sources, these should cover pretty much > everything there is to know about the PC GEM side of things! > > Regards, > Ben A L Jemmett. > http://flatpack.microwavepizza.co.uk/ > > ------------------------------ > *From:* gem-dev-bounces at simpits.org [mailto:gem-dev-bounces at simpits.org] *On > Behalf Of *Shane Gough > *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2009 11:42 AM > *To:* GEM Development > *Subject:* [GEM Development] Looking for some details > > Hi all, > > I'm trying to build a definitive list of all VDI and AES functions (and > escapes) across the two main versions of GEM (Atari and PC). Ideally this > would include information about platform specific functions and what > versions introduced or modified functions. I currently have a collection of > information from various sites (the result of a set of google searches). Are > there any reference books or other documentation (released by DR, Atari or > others) that I should be looking for? > > Thanks, > ShaneG > > > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.simpits.org/pipermail/gem-dev/attachments/20091112/d52f3ed6/attachment-0001.html From Gerhard_Stoll at b.maus.de Thu Nov 12 10:47:00 2009 From: Gerhard_Stoll at b.maus.de (Gerhard Stoll) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:47:00 +0100 Subject: [GEM Development] Looking for some details In-Reply-To: <7da8e8830911120341t7059e8dk1229fcdbfae13ccd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200911121947.p53605@b.maus.de> > VDI and AES functions (and escapes) across the two main versions of > GEM (Atari and PC). Ideally this would include information about > platform specific functions and what versions introduced or modified > functions. http://toshyp.atari.org This page is more for Atari TOS, but we add all information from all VDI and AES functions we found from PC and Atari. What no existent is the binding from the PC version and at the moment have not all functions his own page, but in the functionlist you can found them. Gerhard PS: Is it possible that you send only text mails? My newsreader have problems with multipart (text/html) mails, thanks. From eekee57 at fastmail.fm Sat Nov 28 08:34:40 2009 From: eekee57 at fastmail.fm (Ethan Grammatikidis) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:34:40 +0000 Subject: [GEM Development] GEM-32 - compiler notes Message-ID: <35B175CE-744C-4B49-A7A9-3918949492B3@fastmail.fm> Shane G noted GCC support is a must. Well maybe supporting compilation with GCC is a must, but relying on GCC extensions and behaviour could be a Bad Thing. I've seen increasing feeling against GCC lately. (Anti-GCC feeling is rising in the open source camp! Sounds revolutionary doesn't it? :) ) I've seen LLVM welcomed not because it's anything special in its own right but just because it is an alternative to GCC! My favourite OS doesn't support GCC at all, nor could it ever do while keeping to its principles of simplicity and consistency. I'm sure many who appreciate simplicity would appreciate being able to compile GEM with a simpler compiler. Someone will try TCC sooner or later, that's almost certain, TCC and GEM fall into more or less the same field. TCC: http://bellard.org/tcc/ I don't know how much GEM code would need compiler-specific extensions, hopefully very little, and IMHO the less it needs the better. From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 14:24:33 2009 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 17:24:33 -0500 Subject: [GEM Development] Whatever happened to OpenGem? Message-ID: <8dd2d95c0911291424s5e940cefu18fd728b1331965f@mail.gmail.com> Shane seems to have completely abandoned this project. Not only have there been no updates in, roughly, forever, but the website is also designed, replaced with a "something new is coming soon" page. Did OpenGEM 7 ever get released? Also, where can one find the applications that were removed from OpenGEM 6? I'm trying to build a "classic computer survival/exploration" kit and some nice apps to ren in GEM would certainly go well as a part of that? Thanks for the help, Mike From topcatdrc at yahoo.com Mon Nov 30 01:45:21 2009 From: topcatdrc at yahoo.com (Thomas Clayton) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 01:45:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [GEM Development] Whatever happened to OpenGem? In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0911291424s5e940cefu18fd728b1331965f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <285246.44584.qm@web82301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Mike: I admit to NOT knowing there was a Release 6 of OpenGEM. However, the "app.s" from R5 (and a few previous R'es) _should_ run just great in R6. I _suspect_ Shane was concerned with the "core" environment (and its API's) rather than the 'app.s' themselves. OpenGEM isn't like Linux in this respect: the app.s are not 'bound' to that _ONE_ release (distro?) ONLY. If you go back "far enough" and/or take the commercial app.s released (before ~1993) _THEN_ _they_ might not run. In any case, TRY the app.s from R5 - and SEE for yourself. Sincerely, Thomas Clayton --- On Sun, 11/29/09, Michael Kerpan wrote: > From: Michael Kerpan > Subject: [GEM Development] Whatever happened to OpenGem? > To: gem-dev at simpits.org > Date: Sunday, November 29, 2009, 4:24 PM > Shane seems to have completely > abandoned this project. Not only have > there been no updates in, roughly, forever, but the website > is also > designed, replaced with a "something new is coming soon" > page. Did > OpenGEM 7 ever get released? Also, where can one find the > applications > that were removed from OpenGEM 6? I'm trying to build a > "classic > computer survival/exploration" kit and some nice apps to > ren in GEM > would certainly go well as a part of that? > > Thanks for the help, > Mike > _______________________________________________ > gem-dev mailing list > gem-dev at simpits.org > http://www.simpits.org/mailman/listinfo/gem-dev >